TWS Rhône 19 offer

Alex Lake said:
I see that Matthew Jukes is a big fan of La Chapelle 2019. I used to share his palate about 30 years ago, when I liked oaky monsters. I've not paid much attention to him since, and wonder if his tastes have changed at all.

“This is a monumental wine with the finest Syrah nose I have seen since the ethereal and intriguing beauty of the remarkable 2016 vintage and also the monolithic stance of the legendary 1990.”

He continues, “What I find so remarkable about this wine is that it does not show any trace of over-ripeness nor does it have any unwanted oiliness or excessive alcohol. In spite of its richness and depth, this is a pristinely refreshing wine with crunch and crackle of filigree tannin which enlivens every sip.”

He gave a score of 20++ (whatever that means)

Now, I'm not sure that "Monumental" is necessarily a word to describe something pleasant to drink.
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20++ is laughable & diminishes the standing of Mr. Jukes.
 
Graeme Harvie said:
@Richard Zambuni would be very interesting to see data on recent vintage ABVs to compare the leading names in the key Northern Rhone appellations.

Is there any Hermitage, Cote Rotie or Cornas still made at the ABVs you mentioned?

Is it just Jaboulet Hermitage that is the main culprit for excessive modern day ABVs and if so since when?

Thanks
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Typically Hermitage is the ripest of the three main quality producing areas in the Northern Rhone. It was always described to me as the most “complete” of all. Cote Rotie has a tendency to slightly less ripeness and Cornas probably the most variability, but usually warmer than Cote Rotie.

You would therefore expect abv’s to have a natural tendency to be higher in Hermitage and that is usually the case in practice.

If you then dig a little deeper it can depend on which terroirs are contributing to a blend, the particular year and the intentions of the producer and this is where it gets tricky. It can be easy to suggest that a particular producer is seeking big wines for the sake of it, when he has particularly warm terroirs in a year that is naturally warm and he’s simply produced something along the lines that nature has given him.

However, if you simply look at the expected abv’s in the Wine Society 2019 Rhone offering you will get a spread of producers and can make some basic inferences from what you see.

Cotes-Rotie 16 cuvées listed

13.0% 1
13.5% 12
14.0%. 3

Cornas. 14 cuvées listed

14.0% 8
14.5%. 5

Hermitage. 7 cuvées listed

14.0%. 4
14.5%. 1
15.0%. 0
15.5%. 2


Jaboulet

Cote Rotie 14.0% 1 cuvée
Cornas. 14.5% 2 cuvées
Hermitage 15.5% 2 cuvées

I‘ll leave you to draw your own conclusions as to whether Jaboulet is the main culprit, but you should be aware that Caroline Frey is a trained Bordeaux oenologue, there has been a reduction in production of the grand vin from 100,000 bottles to 35,000 bottles, an introduction of a second wine, a massive effort in the vineyards to improve the quality and a doubling in release price of the “grand vin”. Sound familiar? Can you see where this might be going?
 
In Burgundy some of the elite producers do not churn out wines with high ABVs due to factors which may include but are not limited to meticulous vineyard husbandry, canopy mangagement, control of yields, organic / diodynamic viticulture and of course picking dates.

The N Rhone is of course further south, but at same time if they employed same attention to detail as per elite Burgundy producers then maybe we would not be where we are. I wonder what the ABVs are for Allemand or Clape this year?

Also not sure why ABVs for Hermitage should be historically higher than Cornas as Hermitage is further north, although I may be missing something.
 
Graeme Harvie said:
In Burgundy some of the elite producers do not churn out wines with high ABVs due to factors which may include but are not limited to meticulous vineyard husbandry, canopy mangagement, control of yields, organic / diodynamic viticulture and of course picking dates.

The N Rhone is of course further south, but at same time if they employed same attention to detail as per elite Burgundy producers then maybe we would not be where we are. I wonder what the ABVs are for Allemand or Clape this year?

Also not sure why ABVs for Hermitage should be historically higher than Cornas as Hermitage is further north, although I may be missing something.
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Yes you are missing something. We are talking 10 miles further south, not 150. It’s about soil type and exposition.

I think some might argue with you about the idea that in Burgundy they do not churn out wines with high abv’s.
 
Clape will be between 14 and 14.5%. Allemand I cannot find anyone willing to quote, but I would expect around 14% based on previous experience.
 
Graeme Harvie said:
In Burgundy some of the elite producers do not churn out wines with high ABVs due to factors which may include but are not limited to meticulous vineyard husbandry, canopy mangagement, control of yields, organic / diodynamic viticulture and of course picking dates.

The N Rhone is of course further south, but at same time if they employed same attention to detail as per elite Burgundy producers then maybe we would not be where we are. I wonder what the ABVs are for Allemand or Clape this year?

Also not sure why ABVs for Hermitage should be historically higher than Cornas as Hermitage is further north, although I may be missing something.
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A good producer will not be targeting ABV per se, they are ensuring that they get enough hang-time without stratospheric ABV's (its all about phenolics)
 
Mark Palmer said:
I‘ll leave you to draw your own conclusions as to whether Jaboulet is the main culprit, but you should be aware that Caroline Frey is a trained Bordeaux oenologue, there has been a reduction in production of the grand vin from 100,000 bottles to 35,000 bottles, an introduction of a second wine, a massive effort in the vineyards to improve the quality and a doubling in release price of the “grand vin”. Sound familiar? Can you see where this might be going?
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One place I know, in future, La Chapelle will not be going is into my cellar.
 
“Released today, we’re pleased to introduce you to the brilliant 2019 Domaine winesfrom Paul Jaboulet Aîné. Considered to be another ‘special’ vintage, 2019 has excelled in producing depth and power, but also elegance, balance and finesse; all these elements are demonstrated in these wines. Winemaker Caroline Frey guided us through a zoom tasting and, without exception, the [Wine Merchant’s name] team were hugely impressed by the quality and class that Jaboulet wines now exhibit, without doubt back to their peerless best.”

”elegance, balance and finesse”!!!!

and apparently they tasted the wine.....
 
Graeme Harvie said:
@Richard Zambuni would be very interesting to see data on recent vintage ABVs to compare the leading names in the key Northern Rhone appellations.

Is there any Hermitage, Cote Rotie or Cornas still made at the ABVs you mentioned?

Is it just Jaboulet Hermitage that is the main culprit for excessive modern day ABVs and if so since when?
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Mark P has given you a pretty full answer on my behalf - not much to add to that.

You can still find Cote-Rotie at 12.5%, the Remi Niero 2013 I posted a note on not too long ago was just 12,5%, and some recent Clusel-Roch wines (basic cuvee) have been 12.5%. There are plenty of IGP syrah wines from good producers that stay at 12.5% as well since the vines are up on the cooler plateau more exposed to cooling winds. In Cornas things have moved to 13.5% quite regularly in recent vintages and I haven't seen a 12.5% wine for a while, although Dumien-Serrette 2000 was 12.7% and the 1998 just 12% and that's a super wine! It's in Cote-Rotie that you can still find 13%ers most often now. Anyway, my point is that more alcohol doesn't make better wines, it just makes wines with more alcohol.
 
Graeme Harvie said:
Funny thing is that I don't mind a Southern Rhone at 15% and I quite enjoy the fact that it is on the whole an overlooked (and dare I say unfashionable) region (except Rayas) in the UK wine scene...
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But what will happen with age? "Don't mind" is a pretty low bar, to be honest!
I've enjoyed some lovely old Beaucastels and the like from the 80s, but will the 00s/10s ever become such ethereal beauties?
 
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Richard Zambuni said:
Mark P has given you a pretty full answer on my behalf - not much to add to that.

You can still find Cote-Rotie at 12.5%, the Remi Niero 2013 I posted a note on not too long ago was just 12,5%, and some recent Clusel-Roch wines (basic cuvee) have been 12.5%. There are plenty of IGP syrah wines from good producers that stay at 12.5% as well since the vines are up on the cooler plateau more exposed to cooling winds. In Cornas things have moved to 13.5% quite regularly in recent vintages and I haven't seen a 12.5% wine for a while, although Dumien-Serrette 2000 was 12.7% and the 1998 just 12% and that's a super wine! It's in Cote-Rotie that you can still find 13%ers most often now. Anyway, my point is that more alcohol doesn't make better wines, it just makes wines with more alcohol.
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Dumien-Serrette changed their winemaking practices to involve de-stemming (around 2005-6?) and as a result we will never see wines at those abv’s again, even excluding climate change.

A 2009 Grandes-Places last night was only 13% in a very warm vintage.

Yes, there is a commonly parroted mantra that “riper grapes make better wines“. I’m sure this made sense in the 1980’s when the wines of the late 1960’s and 1970’s were the reference point. I think it’s actually harmful now. A better mantra would be “correctly ripened grapes make better wines” (although some slightly odd people like me prefer their grapes to err on the underripe side of that).
 
Mark Palmer said:
Dumien-Serrette changed their winemaking practices to involve de-stemming (around 2005-6?) and as a result we will never see wines at those abv’s again, even excluding climate change.
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Yes Mark - off the top of my head the 2006 was 70% destemmed and it's been 100% destemmed thereafter as far as I'm aware. I wonder why they felt that they needed to make that change. They have old vines where the fruit ripens fully so not much risk of the wrong kind of steminess. The four wines between 1998 and 2001 are the reference point for me still at this address, although I have high hopes for 2009, 2010 and 2012 based on early peeks.
 
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