Burgundy why bother ?

Thomas (diW) and Mark (T), you raise a very interesting question about the role of variety and discovery in the pleasure dome. The implication is that newness or variety matters more than quality. That makes sense, novelty being an important driver of human development.
 
Last edited:
Novelty/discovery is certainly a big thing for me. But I guess one's appetite for it (or addiction to it?) depends largely on the individual.

Actually, now I think of it I think I might actually choose Sicily over Piemonte.

Of course, I might conceivably have chosen Burgundy as my region if I had unlimited supply of dosh. Fat chance of that, of course, esp in the wake of the Brexit catastrophe.
 
I am still, after a gap, finding good village wines(though no longer 1ers) from the Cote de Nuits at less than £20 from time to time. Hard to beat such wines for value anywhere.
 
Burgundy was fairly affordable 5-10 years ago, Mark. The problem is greater trying to buy it today. But decently made village stuff still surfaces, as Tom suggests, and I reckon some of it is better than a lot of the premiers crus from 20 years ago.
 
Such a thread is always good to read.

The comment about novelty is pertinent to me. As an older forumite, I could easily have slipped into a conservative drinking pattern, with plenty of Bordeaux and Burgundy in the cellar to drink. Yet as new regions have upped their game in the last two decades, I just can't keep up with the excitement. Everyone knows I'm pretty passionate about Austria, and have strong Jura attachments (which go back to the 1980s), but I am currently having a passionate fling with Spain. There's also no doubt that so-called natural wine has introduced me to some fabulous taste experiences too. My drinking has been reinvigorated. I'm thrilled it has.

I don't like Burgundy any less, but at current prices I see no reason to buy much, except from the half dozen producers I still try to follow, none of whom are massively expensive.

I do have to rise to Alex's bait. Alex, we Brits and Americans are always proclaiming to the world that we are the best. Best armed forces, best universities, best legal systems, best democracies. Outsiders laugh at our ignorance and growl at our arrogance. I do enjoy Bordeaux of all types, but I do think it is mere arrogance to say Bordeaux is the best (remember, quality and price do not go hand in hand). As someone said on a record I bought recently, (paraphrasing) "truth is an individual calculation, so, as we all have different perspectives, there isn't one single truth, is there" (anyone name the record on which these are the opening words?).

What I will say, and this is very personal to me, is that I have visited Burgundy many times (and Bordeaux's regions maybe only half a dozen times). I adore the Burgundian landscape (enjoying walking the vineyard paths), I adore the restaurants in the region, I very much like the towns and villages, and find the vignerons open and welcoming, usually without formality. It appeals to me as a place (although I now prefer to avoid the crowds by visiting from outside the region), in a way that wider Bordeaux doesn't...quite as much. These things do, without doubt, affect my appreciation of the wine. Why else are wine producers so welcoming to wine merchants on trade trips?

It is also true that the wines of the two regions are so different that it seems to me a little like comparing strawberries with pineapples.I like both. They are both fruit, but surely the similarities end there?

As a final observation, I am only one person, but I would say I hear people proclaim Bordeaux is better than Burgundy far more often than I hear Burgundians slagging off Bordeaux. For me, the debate seems very outmoded in this very changed wine world in which we live today.
 
David, as regards sensory experiences, I agree there is no truth beyond one's individual experience at this moment, apart from someone else's momentary truth.

But I think the degree of generalisability of truth depends on the domain (not domaine of course!) being discussed. The more Left Brain the domain, arithmetic for example, the more generalisable. The tricky bit is when we try to impose generalisability on non-generalisable domains. Hm, I've gone slightly off topic...
 
David Crossley said:
... I do enjoy Bordeaux of all types, but I do think it is mere arrogance to say Bordeaux is the best (remember, quality and price do not go hand in hand). As someone said on a record I bought recently, (paraphrasing) "truth is an individual calculation, so, as we all have different perspectives, there isn't one single truth, is there" (anyone name the record on which these are the opening words?). ... I hear people proclaim Bordeaux is better than Burgundy far more often than I hear Burgundians slagging off Bordeaux. For me, the debate seems very outmoded in this very changed wine world in which we live today.
Click to expand...
Fully agree, David, except that I don't think this is a matter of truth at all. At best the question of Bordeaux or Burgundy supremacy is a matter of opinion or personal preference, at worst one of mere assertion.

But on a philosophical note, I can't agree at all with your songwriter. Truth is not an individual calculation at all. Truth is, or should be, empirically susceptible of proof, except perhaps in matters of religion (no, let's not go there:(). It is one of the most worrying traits of our times that people seem to think truth is whatever is put out by PR agents or embattled politicians, or tweeted or posted on social media. Happily, Science and Mathematics are still wholly concerned with the truth. And we are still concerned with the truth in our courts of law, at least for so long as political correctness is left behind at the door of the court. But in many other fields, truth seems to have given way to opinion, and to those who shout loudest and longest.

Whilst I haven't a clue as to the identity of your songsmith, I'm sure you will be familiar with the author of "Truth is beauty, beauty truth;/ That is all ye know upon this earth,/ And all ye need to know."
 
Mark Crann said:
Whilst I haven't a clue as to the identity of your songsmith, I'm sure you will be familiar with the author of "Truth is beauty, beauty truth;/ That is all ye know upon this earth,/ And all ye need to know."
Click to expand...

An author, incidentally, who admired claret and Provencal wines (the latter perhaps in a natural or at least frizzante style).
 
David,

I wholeheartedly agree. It is often "clear arrogance" to say that one is "THE BEST".
I was just teasing.

As for Bordeaux, I think there may be sides to the place you may not have not seen.
Surely, there is nothing comparable to the majesty of the great châteaux in Burgundy.
But you emphasize the other more down-to-earth pleasures of Burgundy that the grander side of Bordeaux sidesteps.
But they exist here too:).

All the best,
Alex R.
 
Mark Crann said:
It is one of the most worrying traits of our times that people seem to think truth is whatever is put out by PR agents or embattled politicians, or tweeted or posted on social media. Happily, Science and Mathematics are still wholly concerned with the truth. And we are still concerned with the truth in our courts of law, at least for so long as political correctness is left behind at the door of the court. But in many other fields, truth seems to have given way to opinion, and to those who shout loudest and longest.
Click to expand...

Mark, I think it is partly the difficulty which science, the courts and other fields have in nailing the truth that leaves certainty-hungry people to fall back on assertion. Much of science, some of maths, and much of the outcome of law, is about probability more than truth. Uncertainty is difficult to bear.
 
Just been to the Justerini German tasting. Some lovely whites. The reds were interesting for entirely different reasons and made me think of this thread. Overheard several times things like "positioning" and "prices show these are just as good as burgundy". The wines themselves were overall good, given the hot 2015 vintage, but the prices! Many of the reds were north of 250 ib for 6, some getting up to 500. I'm starting to see Thom's point about Burgundy still being value for money!

How do others on here feel about these?
 
No doubt many will have come across this before but I always return to this when confronted with prescriptive assertions about 'the truth'.

"One blind man grabbed the elephant's tail and said the elephant was a rope. Another holding its trunk countered that it was a snake. A third, touching one of its legs, said it was a tree. Those touching its ears and sides made other claims. All were right from their respective points of view and wrong from the point of view of one another. And both right and wrong from the point of view of the man who knew the elephant. "

Gandhi on the many-sidedness of reality.
 
Last edited:
Stefan Bogdanski said:
Just been to the Justerini German tasting. Some lovely whites. The reds were interesting for entirely different reasons and made me think of this thread. Overheard several times things like "positioning" and "prices show these are just as good as burgundy". The wines themselves were overall good, given the hot 2015 vintage, but the prices! Many of the reds were north of 250 ib for 6, some getting up to 500. I'm starting to see Thom's point about Burgundy still being value for money!

How do others on here feel about these?
Click to expand...
I'd say I taste more German Spätburgunder than almost anyone else on this forum. There are some very, very good producers and many of the others are now learning that extraction, oak, and alcohol are not what Pinot Noir is all about. So lots of hope for the future.

At the low-end of prices, there can be some remarkable-value negociant Pinot Noirs from the likes of J. L. Wolf and Valckenberg (˜$12-15 in the U.S.).

A step above, there are also very good values from some of the best producers.

But at the upper end, it becomes tougher. Fürst and Huber right now are my top two (with a good number not far behind), and they straddle top premier cru/grand cru for Burgundy. Although their prices may seem high for non-Burgundy Pinot Noir, compared to Burgundy, the prices are just (although smart buyers can still find very good values from Burgundy from less familiar names and appellations). But not screaming values.

But the very greatest Burgundy experiences -- I've yet to have an equivalent German Spätburgunder.
 
Mark,
Having been blackmailed (and having paid) by the head of a major law firm in London who showed no interests in the facts and truth, I do not consider anymore the law as being interested in the truth (like science and maths)... just interested in winning the point (and making money) with probably even more pleasure when winning against law, facts and truth. You must be an old (a compliment) man.
 
Jeremy Caan said:
Mark, I think it is partly the difficulty which science, the courts and other fields have in nailing the truth that leaves certainty-hungry people to fall back on assertion. Much of science, some of maths, and much of the outcome of law, is about probability more than truth. Uncertainty is difficult to bear.
Click to expand...

Risking unwelcome thread drift, I suggest probability is only a potentially flawed means of trying to arrive at the truth. It does not detract from the search for truth, which is, or should be, the goal of scientists, mathematicians, and courts of law. The search may fail, but it is still the aim of those engaged in these disciplines.

Antoine Singer said:
Mark,
Having been blackmailed (and having paid) by the head of a major law firm in London who showed no interests in the facts and truth, I do not consider anymore the law as being interested in the truth (like science and maths)... just interested in winning the point (and making money) with probably even more pleasure when winning against law, facts and truth. You must be an old (a compliment) man.
Click to expand...
Antoine, I am only too familiar with cases similar to your depressing and unpleasant experience. But with respect, my point was concerned with the endeavour in court proceedings to arrive at the truth. IMHO, judges and juries do still try to do that. The vicious exploitation outside the courtroom of weaker opponents by ruthless legal practitioners is vile, but when it happens, often the best answer is to dig in, and take them to court, if you can afford to do so. Threatened with an impartial search for the truth, the snakes usually back off, or settle for a sensible outcome.
 
Antoine, I work in a field closely connected with "the law" and I have to say that you have absolutely nailed it. The law, or more accurately the way in which it is delivered, has absolutely nothing to do with truth or justice.
 
Well, truth and justice are different beasts, albeit quite closely connected. One of my bons mots, trotted out (as I grow older) more frequently than is wise, is "There is no such thing as justice, only lawyers".

It is one of my abiding regrets that the politicisation of so many walks of life since 1997 has replaced justice, but not truth, with outcomes that produce a result which is perceived to be politically desirable, and/or which will satisfy the baying of the mob (in the guise, often, of the Daily Mail or the Guardian). Certainly this is far too frequently the case in our courts of law.
 
Last edited:
Mark Crann said:
Risking unwelcome thread drift, I suggest probability is only a potentially flawed means of trying to arrive at the truth. It does not detract from the search for truth, which is, or should be, the goal of scientists, mathematicians, and courts of law.
Click to expand...
and musicians, no matter how unimportant the subject undoubtedly is.
 
Claude Kolm said:
I'd say I taste more German Spätburgunder than almost anyone else on this forum. There are some very, very good producers and many of the others are now learning that extraction, oak, and alcohol are not what Pinot Noir is all about. So lots of hope for the future.

At the low-end of prices, there can be some remarkable-value negociant Pinot Noirs from the likes of J. L. Wolf and Valckenberg (˜$12-15 in the U.S.).

A step above, there are also very good values from some of the best producers.

But at the upper end, it becomes tougher. Fürst and Huber right now are my top two (with a good number not far behind), and they straddle top premier cru/grand cru for Burgundy. Although their prices may seem high for non-Burgundy Pinot Noir, compared to Burgundy, the prices are just (although smart buyers can still find very good values from Burgundy from less familiar names and appellations). But not screaming values.

But the very greatest Burgundy experiences -- I've yet to have an equivalent German Spätburgunder.
Click to expand...
I was also at the Justerini tasting, and I'd have to say that Fürst and Huber were the stand-out Spätburgunders for me - but with prices up to £550 for 6 in bond I'd agree they aren't startling value.
 
Claude Kolm said:
I'd say I taste more German Spätburgunder than almost anyone else on this forum. There are some very, very good producers and many of the others are now learning that extraction, oak, and alcohol are not what Pinot Noir is all about. So lots of hope for the future.

At the low-end of prices, there can be some remarkable-value negociant Pinot Noirs from the likes of J. L. Wolf and Valckenberg (˜$12-15 in the U.S.).

A step above, there are also very good values from some of the best producers.

But at the upper end, it becomes tougher. Fürst and Huber right now are my top two (with a good number not far behind), and they straddle top premier cru/grand cru for Burgundy. Although their prices may seem high for non-Burgundy Pinot Noir, compared to Burgundy, the prices are just (although smart buyers can still find very good values from Burgundy from less familiar names and appellations). But not screaming values.

But the very greatest Burgundy experiences -- I've yet to have an equivalent German Spätburgunder.
Click to expand...
Claude, of course you taste many more German reds than I do, but I'm grateful for someone else with whom to share the sniggers (which go both ways). As someone who no longer gets to dine at the top table where Burgundy is concerned, the middle ground has so much to offer.

I say "red", not merely Spätburgunder. There's even very good Syrah in Southern Baden. Perhaps the "Pinot" issue has been dealt with, except for the die-hards. Onwards with the Rhône's grape. LOL
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top