Burgundy why bother ?

Mark, I agree, it is the endeavour that distinguishes.

Although I suspect similar phenomena have occurred in many countries, unrelated to British political changes in 1997, but simply once political or religious authoritarian truth-imposing weakens, and awareness grows of science's inherent limitations as a replacement.

Now, back to wine. Justerini's for the German 2016s was interesting last night. I still find it difficult to taste the reds and whites together, so I often skip the reds. I'm sure I'm missing something but I have a fair bit of Burgundy which will do.

I heard a couple of people I didn't know comparing the white 16s favourably with the, by implication, overly rich 2015s. I haven't tasted the 15s for a year but my recollection is that that they had the acid to balance the richness. Or will we come to regard 2015 as overrated?
 
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I'd say I taste more German Spätburgunder than almost anyone else on this forum. There are some very, very good producers and many of the others are now learning that extraction, oak, and alcohol are not what Pinot Noir is all about. So lots of hope for the future.

At the low-end of prices, there can be some remarkable-value negociant Pinot Noirs from the likes of J. L. Wolf and Valckenberg (˜$12-15 in the U.S.).

A step above, there are also very good values from some of the best producers.

But at the upper end, it becomes tougher. Fürst and Huber right now are my top two (with a good number not far behind), and they straddle top premier cru/grand cru for Burgundy. Although their prices may seem high for non-Burgundy Pinot Noir, compared to Burgundy, the prices are just (although smart buyers can still find very good values from Burgundy from less familiar names and appellations). But not screaming values.

Thanks for this helpful overview Claude. I'd be interested to hear about those very good values from top producers you mention.

FWIW last night I started the tasting with Furst (Huber was at the next table but none of their wines had prices, so I'm afraid I skipped them) They were showing the 2015s Burgstadter Berg, Klingenberg, Centgrafenberg GG, Schlossberg GG and Hunsruck GG, with prices 135,140,285,365 and 530 gbp for 6 ib. These were bottled in February and April (for GGs) and are around 13.5%, with whole clusters 40%--->100% across the range if I understood correctly. The colour was very light on all of them, in sharp contrast to many 2015 burgundies.

The first two were good enjoyable pinots, the BB a bit more smoky and spicy, the K a tad more fruity (gooseberries crossed with red currants?) but overall both quite masculine - a little new-worldy but quite elegant and not overblown. If I had to compare (somewhat pointlessly) to burgundy I'd say village Fixin perhaps? The C GG, was on the night relatively the weakest - perhaps it was having a bad day - I didn't see much by way of step up compared to the first two. S GG was fuller on the mouth with gooseberries and red currants again longer and more persistent on the aftertaste ending in a nice tight grip. Pointless burgundy comparison: a lieut-dit in Pommard? The H GG was showing well, some smoky framboise on the nose a bit more tannins quite closed but should be fun when it opens up. PBC: minor Morey 1er cru?

Claude, it would be interesting to know what these wines are like in other years. 2015 was hot, these wines didn't seem to suffer from that, but perhaps there is more elegance in other vintages?

So four good wines, but at the end of the day have to look at the prices. Remembering that Burgundy 2015 ep prices are very fruity, you still could have had for example top 1er Savigny for less than the first two, very good 1er NSG from high end producers for the third wine, Faivley's Cazetier was at a similar price to the fourth wine, and by the time you reach 530 ib for 6 you are spoiled for choice.
 
I heard a couple of people I didn't know comparing the white 16s favourably with the, by implication, overly rich 2015s. I haven't tasted the 15s for a year but my recollection is that that they had the acid to balance the richness. Or will we come to regard 2015 as overrated?

It must depend substantially on what sort of wine you like. Both appear to be excellent vintages, but very different. At the Weil table I was told that the 15s had more acidity than the 16s analytically, confirming your recollection. For me, overall the 15s were really overblown and I did not enjoy them (with one or two exceptions). The 16s seemed more elegant and complex, without being diluted or thin.
 
Stefan -- Both Huber and Fürst have good entry-level wines that should not be too expensive.

In less hot vintages, wines from those two have been balanced but more elegant and perhaps nervy. But too many producers were still relying too much on oak, alcohol, and extraction in earlier years. At this year's GG tasting, that, refreshingly, was not the case.
 
Well, truth and justice are different beasts, albeit quite closely connected. One of my bons mots, trotted out (as I grow older) more frequently than is wise, is "There is no such thing as justice, only lawyers".

It is one of my abiding regrets that the politicisation of so many walks of life since 1997 has replaced justice, but not truth, with outcomes that produce a result which is perceived to be politically desirable, and/or which will satisfy the baying of the mob (in the guise, often, of the Daily Mail or the Guardian). Certainly this is far too frequently the case in our courts of law.

The Hillsborough cover up and the convictions of the Birmingham 6 and Guildlford 4 are just a handful of politically motivated miscarriages of justice that occurred before the glorious revolution of 1997. But this is not the place to talk political claptrap, as you know.
 
While it's a lovely notion, is there really true truth in music, I wonder? Or is that type of truth (the beauty type) in danger of polluting other, more factual/axiom-based, truths? My head is spinning!
Whether there is or not the search for it is the task of the performer. Something I think only applies to music that is fully notated, but I could be wrong.
 
Claude, of course you taste many more German reds than I do, but I'm grateful for someone else with whom to share the sniggers (which go both ways). As someone who no longer gets to dine at the top table where Burgundy is concerned, the middle ground has so much to offer.

I say "red", not merely Spätburgunder. There's even very good Syrah in Southern Baden. Perhaps the "Pinot" issue has been dealt with, except for the die-hards. Onwards with the Rhône's grape. LOL

A guilty sniggerer. :oops: I have only had one outstanding spätburgunder: Keller. It is very pricy but worth the money. Otherwise it's been a tale of half-decent, ordinary, mediocre or woeful. The roll of (dis)honour includes Huber, Stodden, Meyer-Näckel, Salwey. Names of other guilty parties could be provided, if I dug a little deeper.
 
The Hillsborough cover up and the convictions of the Birmingham 6 and Guildlford 4 are just a handful of politically motivated miscarriages of justice that occurred before the glorious revolution of 1997. But this is not the place to talk political claptrap, as you know.
You miss the point, Phil. Those miscarriages (and they were grave, don't misunderstand me) do not detract from the endeavour within a courtroom to arrive at the truth. The distortion, suppression, or invention of evidence by witnesses or enforcement agencies should be exposed in a trial, but that does not always happen, despite, not because of, the genuine endeavours of those charged with the trial process.
 
Agreed (in the two bombing cases, not Hillsborough). But it is quite another matter to suggest that the judges in those cases were not genuinely trying to discern the truth. There have been important procedural changes since then, which have introduced valuable safeguards against the errors which contributed very substantially to those miscarriages.

Our jury system is a hugely important bulwark against miscarriages of many kinds, not least oppressive action by the State (e.g. Clive Ponting's acquittal). When it goes wrong, it is usually the fault of procedure, bad prosecution or defence lawyers, or even of inadequate judges; rarely of perverse juries. But everyone is (usually) trying to get to the truth once court proceedings are under way. Judges are rightly slow to overrule juries unless there are clear grounds to do so.
 
Not at all, Claude, just that the performer in those areas is not entrusted with realising a document as precisely as possible in every way, which of course involves an understanding of much which is not notated.
 
Not at all, Claude, just that the performer in those areas is not entrusted with realising a document as precisely as possible in every way, which of course involves an understanding of much which is not notated.

Ahhh.

I've been musing your earlier post Tom but this one clarifies it for me.

My entire training was designed to deliver consistently - and most personal satisfaction comes through - the 'truth' or accurate interpretation (as perceived in the modern world!) of the music one is asked to play.

Styles change of course and authenticity has become so much more prevalent- mostly a good thing - but it is the musical equivalent of sourcing and seasonality.

Truth in music indeed.
 
Not at all, Claude, just that the performer in those areas is not entrusted with realising a document as precisely as possible in every way, which of course involves an understanding of much which is not notated.
How do you view original instruments in this?

What about Bach, who in some cases didn't specify instruments?

I presume that you view most opera productions as avoiding truth, especially when set in another time or place than that specified by the composer/librettist?

Speaking of opera, which is the true version of Verdi's Don Carlo(s)?

;-) Just playin' with ya!
 
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[QUOTE="Mark Crann, post: 81223, member: 79". But everyone is (usually) trying to get to the truth once court proceedings are under way. [/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree courts do try to get at the truth, but they don't always succeed, and it's instructive to look at the reasons why the sometimes fail.

But as to whether burgundy is (still) worth it, I do wonder in terms of my Personal consumption, as my wife tends to find The Wines Too high pitched, and i don't so often get The chance to Open a bottle of an evening.

I seem to have switched to a German keyboard in typing this, so apols for the spurious caps
 
Since we have lots of thread drift, speaking as a non-English lawyer, I thought the recent film "Denial" about the David Irving defamation proceeding against the American historian Deborah Lipstadt extremely well done and one that didn't dumb down the issues too much.
 
[QUOTE="Mark Crann, post: 81223, member: 79". But everyone is (usually) trying to get to the truth once court proceedings are under way.

Yes, I agree courts do try to get at the truth, but they don't always succeed, and it's instructive to look at the reasons why the sometimes fail.

But as to whether burgundy is (still) worth it, I do wonder in terms of my personal consumption, as my wife tends to find the wines too high pitched, and I don't so often get the chance to open a bottle of an evening.

[/QUOTE]

Ken, that's an interesting comment which makes me think that you are mostly opening young wines; but I am not at all sure that I have got the right end of the stick.
 
"Young" is a relative concept but, yes, that accounts for some of my consumption. I do prefer some age on even lesser wines though, so am finding lesser 05s currently in a nice place. For 1ers, I have been going through the odd 04 and then from 2002 back to 1993, plus the occasional older bottle. Even some of these can appear to need more time though
 
Hmm - Philosophy-pages eh? Truth is there isn't any truth, so if you (Mark / others) think you've found it (or can find it) you're looking in the wrong place or are too easily satisfied.:)

Anyway this all sprung from a jokey and misunderstood comment from Alex, who doesn't really think Bordeaux is better than Burgundy, or (probably) that even to say so makes any sense.

Red Burgundy: Emperor's New Clothes. Worth the bother about 5% of the time. Bring on global warming.
Red Rhone (North or South) - meh. Average 1 bottle every 3 years, such is its supreme irrelevance. To my palate.
 
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