NWR 6N 2021.

Clear knock on... but a few yellow cards saved by England... so all in all... big mistake a sort of compensation... England much better now...

except with penalties...
 
Last edited:
Well. England have nothing to complain about now. Some of the most tragic discipline I’ve ever had the displeasure of watching.
Yup, brainless. Get it back to 24 each, then foot on the gas, but no. I do think that Itoje was very hard done by with the lineout penalty - he asks the touch judge who says get out, he gets out. No effect on play. Then it gets pulled back. Must have been the tmo. Still, the other two nailed on and unsurprisingly an interception then try.
 
I hadn't realised re: the quick penalty for Wales' try, that Farrell had been asked to speak to his players. Sod the water carrier argument, which felt spurious, how are players are meant to get back to the wing inside a second?!!! Two very poor refereeing decisions resulting in two tries ought to be something the ref (and his supporting officials) need to be honest with themselves and learn from.

Meanwhile, having got back into the game, England gave away a succession of shockingly amateur / crude penalties, and on the basis of that (and some earlier stupid ones) didn't deserve to win the game. It was especially pleasing to see Robson's obstruction called. Those blocking runs have been a disgrace for a while, so I'm really happy that they are finally getting penalised.
 
I can’t recall ever seeing a refereeing performance like that. What a complete shocker. It’s easy to criticise england for their stupidity when they got back to 24 all but they should never have been fighting to get back in the game in the first place. Moreover, whilst there’s no question the succession of penalties they gave up from 24 all onwards were correct, the ref could easily have given just as many against Wales for persistent offside and sealing the ball off. He gave precisely zero against them for often the same offences he immediately penalised england for. There was clearly a decent game to be played between these sides. Sadly, the ref decided that shouldn’t be allowed to happen.
 
Was it a knock-on? It seemed to come to ground backwards off his leg to me - hand to leg can't be a knock-on, surely, otherwise you'd knock on every time you kicked for touch? Someone correct me please?

14 easy points from two quick penalties, well, full marks to Wales, and duh...England; not much of a match thanks to all the rule-breaking, it's all very well to blame the ref. but England's reputation for stupid penalty give-aways is steadily growing. Time to stop it somehow.
 
Was it a knock-on? It seemed to come to ground backwards off his leg to me - hand to leg can't be a knock-on, surely, otherwise you'd knock on every time you kicked for touch? Someone correct me please?
I don't think was a knock-on either, but perhaps there's a rule I'm not aware of. On the other hand the ref allowing the penalty kick to be taken while England were still being spoken to by Farrell at his express request was an egregious mistake. You can't call in your wings and full back and then expect them to defend the line from a huddle under the posts.
 
A perhaps contrarian view on the first try, but it seemed to me that Farrell had finished talking, the left wing had run back into place, and all the blindside defence was aligned, but Ford covering on the right was walking back into position with his back to the action. I can understand why the ref blew for time on
 
Was it a knock-on? It seemed to come to ground backwards off his leg to me - hand to leg can't be a knock-on, surely, otherwise you'd knock on every time you kicked for touch? Someone correct me please?
The critical element of drop goals and kicks are the italicised bit. So if you accidentally drop the ball, then swing a leg at it or it hits the leg, it would be a knock-on. In this scenario there can be no doubt he lost control of it.
"A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it."

I agree with part of what you said - his hand knocked it forward, and as he was running forward, it hit his leg and bounced backwards off his leg. If taken solely in relation to the position of his body, then the ball went net backwards. However that's not taking into account that he was running forwards. Now play it back again, looking at the location on the field where his hand knocked it forwards, and then then location on the field where it touched the England player. You can judge this easily from the short line (5M?) running parallel with the touchline. Net, the ball travels a good few yards forward.

FWIW I think it would be wrong to put the blame for this one solely on the referee. The TMO's role was key, but the communications between ref and TMO seemed awfully confused. If the TMO had been asked "Did the attacking player lose control of the ball?" and "Did the ball go forwards between the moment he lost control and the moment it hit an England player / the ground", then I think the TMO would have got it right. As it was the messaging was confused and the TMO didn't take ownership and talk the referee through it.
 
Last edited:
Re the 2nd welsh try, there’s no dispute that it went forward off the palm of his hand. I had always understood that that was enough for it to be a knock on. However, the commentators noted that the ball hitting his leg before touching the ground meant that what mattered was not that it went forward off his hand but whether after hitting his leg it had still overall gone forward ie look at where the ball was when it hit his hand relative to where it was when it hit the ground after hitting his leg. That’s both difficult to assess and a much closer judgement. However, given he was moving forward at full speed, it seemed to me the ball landed in front of where it was when it hit his hand. What didn’t help was that the ref and video ref made no effort to explain that thought process/rule.
 
A perhaps contrarian view on the first try, but it seemed to me that Farrell had finished talking, the left wing had run back into place, and all the blindside defence was aligned, but Ford covering on the right was walking back into position with his back to the action. I can understand why the ref blew for time on
This argument has a little more merit. The left wing ran off before the rest of the group huddle broke up, and it appears the ref has gone by that. Knowing that he'd been specifically asked by Wales to let them know, he probably needed a little common sense to recognise that. He also lost a lot of respect by saying "Let me talk first" and then after he'd finished, running off and not listening to Farrell. In addition, I would expect that referees are expected to keep water carriers off the pitch if the option of a tap penalty is in play (but don't know for sure).

That said compare the amble of England's right wing, to the urgency of the left wing, then yes it's an argument with merit.
 
Third time lucky this six nations! I wonder if their good fortune has also helped them play better than was expected at the start of the tournament?
As a welsh supporter we couldn’t understand how they were so bad initially under Pivac with essentially the same players. They seemed to lose the ability to adjust and defend though did go with a more attacking open profile. If things hadn’t turned around in those early six nations games I think he would have lost his job and there was pressure on him. I expected us to finish at almost bottom of the table to be honest given how they had been playing.
The first two games backed this up, Ireland we were awful at times and even against 14 men I think we made hard work of things.
Scotland also in the first half hour I thought we were poor and the game was drifting away but again 14 men and we did just a little better than the previous week.
Again yesterday you can say they were fortunate initially but England getting back to 24-24 gave them every chance and Wales generally played well though poor English discipline at 24 all gave them the ability to stretch ahead. Ultimately the second half performance was very good as I thought England generally played well in the back line.
luckiest triple crown in a long time ? Probably. I will be interested to see how we play against Italy but then of course France will be a real test.
 
Just catching up with the thread, but got to put my pennies worth in.
The first Walsh try was a total referee mistake. You can't tell Farrel to talk to his players and that you'll give him time then restart whilst his players are still in that meeting, however desperate the Walsh were to restart. Either have continued play or not.
The second was knock on as far as I understand the rule, no control ball forward from hand. Yet the TMO said it didn't go forward, how when the Walsh wing is so quick and is at full speed.
The continuous penalty count really meant that England were on a hiding to nothing, they should have learnt where the referee's mindset was and stopped offending. Wales were much better at that and smarter, they played well and congratulations.
England lacked leadership and a change of captain may be needed.
 
Top