Burgundy why bother ?

[Nick Martin]

When Lehmann went tits up in 2008, Kilgour followed suit, having gone down the off the peg route with made-to-measure out of a factory in Shanghai for £1,200 a shot, but very well cut, made with decent cloth and fully canvassed. They found themselves in the dangerous territory of being neither one thing nor the other. Low-end luxury markets suffered the most around that time, along with sub-prime consumer markets. I bought 8 suits at the time that were marked down in their fire sale to £175-200 per suit. They are pretty good, and will outlast me given I'm in a suit 3 days a week at most. Frankly almost as nicely cut as a Huntsman bespoke (£5,000-£7,000) if not quite as well constructed. Not sure what this is apropos but thought I'd share given this is the Wine-Pages Tailoring thread

 

[David Crossley]

All jeans are hand made - product of PRC, inclusive



Sexist comment! Male tailors are as special as female ones!

Wrong JS. My comment, as I'm sure most people here who know me understood, acknowledged that because a woman (who a member of my family knows) has had to work so bloody hard to battle a male dominated profession, then you can be sure she must be very good indeed to have been allowed into the club.

She is very good. First femal cutter on the Row, and she's so good that she gets recs to her from other Tailors.

 

[Edward Bolland]

Take a look at the price for Roumier's version!

Prompted by this and the wish to give my 2010 red burgundy a health check I've opened a Roumier BR 10 this evening. Quite a nice bottle of wine and amongst the better examples of BR in my opinion. However if I can move my remaining stock on for anything like the average wine-searcher price then I would be tempted to convert it into something much more exciting.

 

[Keith Prothero]

Have now sold all my red Burgundy except for the really good stuff whose prices I think will continue to rise . As far as I am concerned this wine is a commodity that is liquid gold !!! And of course a far better investment than gold !!!

 

[Keith Prothero]

Another example of the crazy increase in prices

I bought a case of Bonneau du Martray CC 2008 only last year on WO for £750 a case. Decided this morning to list it for sale on WO and BBX and was amazed to see the cheapest IB price is now £1395 !!

 

[johnny Shek]

Not necessarily DC. It may well be true, but certainly not guaranteed to be. I believe in equal rights, but this is equivalent to guilty until proven innocent.

 

[John Thomson]

Prompted by this and the wish to give my 2010 red burgundy a health check I've opened a Roumier BR 10 this evening. Quite a nice bottle of wine and amongst the better examples of BR in my opinion. However if I can move my remaining stock on for anything like the average wine-searcher price then I would be tempted to convert it into something much more exciting.

But isn't this the point-in amongst the great enthusiasm for the lower level wines in 15 at the end of the day they remain, wait for it....lower level wines.
The whole point in burgundy is terroir transparency so they can never achieve more than the vineyard will allow.
I've drunk loads of pleasurable BR over the years but I've yet to have one I would describe as profound.

So I fail to see the point in tying in cash for these wines well in advance

 

[Edward Bolland]

But isn't this the point-in amongst the great enthusiasm for the lower level wines in 15 at the end of the day they remain, wait for it....lower level wines.
The whole point in burgundy is terroir transparency so they can never achieve more than the vineyard will allow.
I've drunk loads of pleasurable BR over the years but I've yet to have one I would describe as profound.

So I fail to see the point in tying in cash for these wines well in advance

As I said, a nice bottle. I suspect that I bought the BR in order to get a few bottles of the rarer stuff at a time when it (the BR) was still relatively cheap.

 

[Jonathan Budd]

But isn't this the point-in amongst the great enthusiasm for the lower level wines in 15 at the end of the day they remain, wait for it....lower level wines.
The whole point in burgundy is terroir transparency so they can never achieve more than the vineyard will allow.
I've drunk loads of pleasurable BR over the years but I've yet to have one I would describe as profound.

So I fail to see the point in tying in cash for these wines well in advance

Possibly - although looking at what's happened to prices of things like Bachelet, Tremblay, Barthod and Grivot BRs I am glad that I did tie in the cash for those. I certainly wouldn't buy them at current money - so would not be able to drink and enjoy them if I hadn't struck early - and I now at least have the option to sell them and buy grander things from other regions with the proceeds. Whether I do that or not is another matter and I feel a little like Ben H that these price rises are all rather depressing. That said, seeing as 'we are where we are', Tremblay BR or more Faurie Hermitage could be regarded as a no-brainer. That is not an option I would have had without buying humble wines EP.

So if this trend continues (I have no clue either way) then buying early may not actually be so dumb. As an example to think about - for how much longer is Hudelot-Noellat's excellent BR going to be cheap as chips ? Again, I have no idea but I'm not convinced that people who buy lots of the 2015 are behaving irrationally based on recent precedent.

 

[John Thomson]

Possibly - although looking at what's happened to prices of things like Bachelet, Tremblay, Barthod and Grivot BRs I am glad that I did tie in the cash for those. I certainly wouldn't buy them at current money - so would not be able to drink and enjoy them if I hadn't struck early - and I now at least have the option to sell them and buy grander things from other regions with the proceeds. Whether I do that or not is another matter and I feel a little like Ben H that these price rises are all rather depressing. That said, seeing as 'we are where we are', Tremblay BR or more Faurie Hermitage could be regarded as a no-brainer. That is not an option I would have had without buying humble wines EP.

So if this trend continues (I have no clue either way) then buying early may not actually be so dumb. As an example to think about - for how much longer is Hudelot-Noellat's excellent BR going to be cheap as chips ? Again, I have no idea but I'm not convinced that people who buy lots of the 2015 are behaving irrationally based on recent precedent.

No one is arguing that it was good fortune to have bought wines years ago that have gone up in price-that's self evident.
The point I am making is that people are now apparently prepared to speculate on wines that are not inherently that interesting-they don't really reflect any terroir and whilst they are perfectly adequate wines this seems to be more about market frenzy (speculation) rather than connoisseurship. To me that is worrying

 

[Thom Blach]

Compared to other recent developments in the world it's not that worrying, John, though certainly irritating.

 

[Alex Jagger]

Another example of the crazy increase in prices

I bought a case of Bonneau du Martray CC 2008 only last year on WO for £750 a case. Decided this morning to list it for sale on WO and BBX and was amazed to see the cheapest IB price is now £1395 !!

I think some if it is some kind of price restructuring, particularly from FRW, possibly in reaction to the exchange rate adjustment.

Lots of wines are listed by FRW much higher than before it seems.

I was buying some stuff in Europe before and the prices seemed so good when tje other way around!

 

[John Thomson]

Compared to other recent developments in the world it's not that worrying, John, though certainly irritating.

How true Thom!

 

[Jonathan Budd]

John

I really struggle to see how buying cheaper wines EP cannot be sensible connoisseurship.

Not everyone can afford to drink something grand each time a bottle of red Burgundy is called for. And finding humble wines a few years after the campaign is often just as hard as it is to find the more profound wines that you talk about. I derived huge pleasure last year from a bottle of Denis Bachelet's 2008 BR - a pleasure that would have been denied to me had I not stored the wine and tied up some money.

If you like the wine, don't think it will be available in a few years and/or think you'll need to pay more for it then why not buy a few cases of eg Ladoix or Givry or Bourgogne Rouge? Obviously makes most sense if you can avoid storage charges.

I see it being little different to buying Riesling Kabinett EP.

And I don't think anyone is seriously speculating in the way that I think you're suggesting.

 

[Thom Blach]

I'm enjoying a lovely Chambolle Musigny 2009 from Stephane Magnien this evening, a simple delight which is low on ambition but high on delivery. Great value at £13 or so a few years ago. It will probably make a good mature bottle.

 

[Mark Gough]

I'm enjoying a lovely Chambolle Musigny 2009 from Stephane Magnien this evening, a simple delight which is low on ambition but high on delivery. Great value at £13 or so a few years ago. It will probably make a good mature bottle.

I think you'll find young Stephane, as very well thought of indeed by his fellow Morey winemakers, has plenty of ambition both for himself and his wines. Whether he regards his Chambolle as a 'simple delight' I can't comment on but he's a great guy in terms of skill, and indeed delivery, as well as 'balance' on his pricing (including his 2015s). .

 

[Claude Kolm]

I'm enjoying a lovely Chambolle Musigny 2009 from Stephane Magnien this evening, a simple delight which is low on ambition but high on delivery. Great value at £13 or so a few years ago. It will probably make a good mature bottle.

You don't find his wines quite modern (read, international) in style, or is that acceptable to you?

 

[Thom Blach]

I don't know them apart from this, Claude, but I wouldn't call this modern. His father's most certainly weren't but nor were they exciting.

 

[Edward Bolland]

After last night's Roumier BR 2010 I've tried a David Clark BR from the same vintage this evening. More savoury, perhaps more balanced, certainly more satisfying.

 

[Alex Jagger]

Despite the fact one it might not always make huge financial sense (wine appreciation is not all about the money though right) I have found one just often never gets round to buying things you know you might like or did well in a particular vintage after the event.

Most of us must have some kind of budget, I make my largest and a quite significant purchase at this time of year.

Its practical, easy, and actually fun, adding something interesting, something new or which has received some plaudits alongside the rarer stuff within my allotted spend from the lower end. It also makes for a balanced order which helps with the old allocations.

I stopped buying Bdx EP pretty much at '09 bar a few things I've picked up in sales - Haut Batailley '09 for £180 anyone - but I've now got a list of wines I'd like to have but never seem to get round to buying as theres always a sale or something else pops up to snaffle the cash!

Not to mention allocating cash to pull stuff out of bond but that's probably worth a thread to itself!

 

[Claude Kolm]

I don't know them apart from this, Claude, but I wouldn't call this modern. His father's most certainly weren't but nor were they exciting.

Interesting. The one time (ca. 2000-2002, as best I recall without looking it up) I visited the father's estate, Michel Magnien, I learned that Stephane made the wines there, and to me they were indistinguishable in stye from the wines under Stephane's name.

 

[Thom Blach]

Wrong Magnien, Claude, you're thinking of Frederic and his father Michel, not Stephane and his father Jean-Paul. Frederic's were very modern indeed last time I looked!

 

[Claude Kolm]

Yes, you are right, Tom -- a senior moment on my part. Yes, Stéphane is infinitely better than his father (Jean-Paul; one of the worst visits I've ever had in Burgundy was with J-P back in 1989 or 1990 -- I don't think there was any topping up of the barrels), and is traditional in style. I'm still yet to be converted to full enthusiasm, based on what I've tasted, though.

 

[Steven Pritchard]

I think some if it is some kind of price restructuring, particularly from FRW, possibly in reaction to the exchange rate adjustment.

Lots of wines are listed by FRW much higher than before it seems.

I was buying some stuff in Europe before and the prices seemed so good when tje other way around!

Yep FRW almost always source directly from the "grey market" in Europe (in Euros of course) with their standard 10-20% margin (inflating the increase somewhat).

 

[Mark Carrington]

Wrong Magnien, Claude, you're thinking of Frederic and his father Michel, not Stephane and his father Jean-Paul. Frederic's were very modern indeed last time I looked!

Modern? Positively futuristic!