New York Times article on Bordeaux

Slightly snooty article on Bordeaux in the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/26/dining/wine-review-bordeaux-2011.html?_r=0

Asimov talks about Bordeaux in the past tense and basically says it’s a wine for old farts. However, I think he only sees this from the narrow angle of his geeky microcosm and certainly does not have a good handle on what the world at large thinks of Bordeaux (China is by far the number one export market for both volume and value, Belgium imports more Bordeaux than the United States, etc.).

For all the article’s faults, he does get a few things right :). Bordeaux shines at table i.e., it’s not your sipping wine at a party. That’s for sure. And it has structure, something so often missing in other wines…

Most of the wines the Times tasted were great growths, which perfectly illustrates the age-old problem when the name "Bordeaux" is mentioned. The great wines *have* become very expensive. But they are only the tip of the iceberg (approximately 5% of the total). He’s on target when he compares these wines to Premier Cru Burgundy or vintage Champagne.
Asimov pretty much rejects second wines out of hand (he at least admits he has little experience with them).

Yes, there is a lot of inferior cheap Bordeaux out there. BUT there are also plenty of good value wines.
Funny, isn’t it, how it’s considered really cool when someone tracks down a lovely minor Burgundy or a wine from a little-known French region like Bugey or Lubéron, but Bordeaux is considered old hat and not propitious to such discoveries. Nothing could be further from the truth!
Asimov writes that "perhaps the $ 20 range is not the best place to look for Bordeaux". I heartily disagree, even if I acknowledge that critics, the media, and the wine trade in some countries cannot be bothered to search out inexpensive wines that can hold their own in terms of value for money with ones from anywhere in the world. Their reasoning: even if I come across a really good wine from a modest appellation, I won’t have a market for it, and the wine will sit on the shelf. So why bother?

Obviously, the Bordelais have to take their fair share of blame for this situation.

Alex R.
 
The classed growths can't be that unpopular if they can sell Smith Haut Lafitte for $100 a bottle! I'm an old enough fart to remember being an enthusiastic buyer for this sort of stuff at around 10 quid..

I would guess there there may be a problem lower down, at the Bourg/Blaye/cheap St. Emilion levels...there's a lot of delicious stuff from elsewhere these days at similar pricing, and I must say I never bother with cheap red Bordeaux any more; I suspect I'm not alone..
 
I really believe that Bordeaux is very often representig a very fair value if you search and cellar. The ignored necessity to age Bordeaux leads nowadays to legions of too early consumed bottles which don't provide enough pleasure for the asked prices. I really enjoy aged " cheap stuff " and if you drink an aged Lanessan 2000 you know why. The problem might be that Bordeaux isn't a party wine, it's a wine which is blossoming with food but who is still cooking und sitting down for dinner regulary ? Wine drinking seems nowadays more about sensation either point or region,variety,colour etc. wise and that's something Bordeaux can only partly offer. Bordeaux with it's greed isn't a crowd pleaser and denying the younger - non millionaire - generation a fair access and seems to position themselves at the side line for the future. If you see wine as a luxury project and not as a beverage, they might be - sooner than later - selling as many bottles as Patek is selling watches today.
Cheers
Rainer ( old fart )
 
Most of the wines the Times tasted were great growths, which perfectly illustrates the age-old problem when the name "Bordeaux" is mentioned. The great wines *have* become very expensive. But they are only the tip of the iceberg (approximately 5% of the total). He’s on target when he compares these wines to Premier Cru Burgundy or vintage Champagne.
Asimov pretty much rejects second wines out of hand (he at least admits he has little experience with them).

Yes, there is a lot of inferior cheap Bordeaux out there. BUT there are also plenty of good value wines.
Funny, isn’t it, how it’s considered really cool when someone tracks down a lovely minor Burgundy or a wine from a little-known French region like Bugey or Lubéron, but Bordeaux is considered old hat and not propitious to such discoveries. Nothing could be further from the truth!
Asimov writes that "perhaps the $ 20 range is not the best place to look for Bordeaux". I heartily disagree, even if I acknowledge that critics, the media, and the wine trade in some countries cannot be bothered to search out inexpensive wines that can hold their own in terms of value for money with ones from anywhere in the world. Their reasoning: even if I come across a really good wine from a modest appellation, I won’t have a market for it, and the wine will sit on the shelf. So why bother?

Obviously, the Bordelais have to take their fair share of blame for this situation.

Alex R.

Fully agree with your comments Alex, in particular the piece in bold. I absolutely love Bordeaux, and believe there's far more quality out there than the Bordelais get credit for, when you stoop down below Cru Classe and Cru Bourgeois. The real problem I have, though, is finding it. Beyond classified level, I'm very much in my merchant's hands.
 
Ha ha, Rainer! I do completely agree with you though.

I suspect, Alex, that some of what you pick up may be due to Eric Asimov's location (or the location of the publication at least). Though as Rainer says, the move of the major chateaux towards the luxury goods market has its own consequences, and I think it can be very deleterious for the minor chateaux. I know you have been a consistent advocate for the value to be found there, so it must be rather galling to be on the receiving end of this effect.
 
It's the aging that's the problem, Rainer, the space in my cellar is finite and I'd prefer to have some variety so I stay clear of the cheaper stuff. I love Bordeaux (red and white), but to my taste I like to drink the reds at 2-3 years or 12-30 years, not much in between. As you say, I suspect a lot of younger buyers ignore the need for cellaring and find nothing but disappointment.
 
Alex, what I say does not come from an intention to knock Bordeaux, just the opposite. I think your criticism of a great wine writer is a little reactionary, as I don't think this particular writer writes from a geeky microcosm.

You say, quite rightly, that the "great growths" only represent about 5% of the Bordeaux market and that these are all we hear about. It's true. I wonder sometimes if the Cru Classés just don't want any competition, nor dilution of their brand image, so hard do they appear to stamp down on the minnows beneath them. When do we ever read about the Petits Châteaux, yet the Cru Classés hog every issue of Decanter, World of Fine Wine, even Noble Rot these days. Jamie Goode has written a good article this month which covers some small producers, but articles like that are few and far between.

You mention China's imports - well, in my view, China imports whatever they can get to sell to an unsuspecting public at inflated prices, and when they can't get enough they just manufacture it themselves (I've been following a young wine couple in China at the moment and have seen some extraordinary fakes).

I really want Bordeaux to be seen for it's decent and honest wines made by family producers. I want to see innovation too, both in winemaking (though not necessarily following the producer who made Bordeaux's first ever pétillant naturel, quite nice but very expensive) and in marketing. But you must admit that where these guys exist, they don't get a look in.

Bordeaux IS...CURRENTLY...a wine pretty much bought by old farts and young conservatives (that's with a little c). This is because the wines in the specialist wine merchants cost so much, and the ones in our supermarkets are generally CRAP! Perhaps the trade could do more to promote them? But someone better do it. The yoof (sic) of today are not buying Bordeaux, and it's purely because of this idea that Bordeaux = Cru Classé, and Cru Classé is expensive wine for rich collectors. That is a perception I KNOW has stuck in the UK, because I know plenty of "trendy" young merchants. And if there is a perception Bordeaux should sort that out itself, not blame everyone else, from writers and merchants to consumers. It's first and foremost a problem for the CIVB (or whatever their initials are) and their marketing arm.

Effectively what I'm saying is this - there is a certain perception about Bordeaux...that this perception is largely of its own making...and that "Bordeaux" should stop blaming everyone else for this perception and do something about it. If the wine world has managed to successfully embrace "The New California", "The New Beaujolais", "The New Jura" and "The New Australia" etc, surely a powerful and organised Bordeaux wine body could achieve the same for their own region. Or maybe they don't want to? Does it suit the Great Growths to be seen as that mountain peak, better than the rest, more expensive than the rest, more exclusive than the rest? Are thousands of producers in the region paying their subs just to get a bad deal which only helps and favours that tiny minority?
 
My children love both Bordeaux and Bourgogne when they come home... However, it would never cross their mind to buy a bottle themselves. LVMH stuff...
They indulge Cote du Rhone though.
This may be a long term problem ...
 
David,
it's like waves. When I joined the virtual wine world you got hammered by nearly everybody when you confessed to enjoy Burgundy. Today Burgundy is everybodies darling and you nearly have to drink Jura or Chinon wines at least once a week .
Bordeaux was always the conservative middle of the road wine where you could live the dream by buying Chasse Spleen, Beychevelle, Lynch Bages, Margaux, even Petrus depending on your mood and wallet. It was affordable for students, I started while studying, and sometimes you could participate in the upper ten world by saving for a 60 DM bottle of 1er cru. Today it's different: if you join the Bordeaux world nowadays you will most probably know that you won't get a chance drinking a Margaux, Petrus without mortgaging your not existing home. And that annoys people, that's driving them away from Bordeaux. They don't want only potatoes they want some meat from time to time as well. It's not the quality - I think it will be difficult to find a region producing so many bottles on such a high quality level - it's the financial interest disguised as an elitist approach taken by Bordeauxs leaders.
Looking back at more than 40 years of wine drinking I don't see a region ( perhaps beside rural Burgundy or early Piedmont - mostly because of the opportunity to deal directly with the winemakers ) which has provided so much pleasure for me. It will come back after it has learned it's lesson, sooner or later. Their future won't be sponsoring Bloggers, writers by letting them participate in their grandezza, their future is to see how a pyramide is built.
Cheers
Rainer ( old fart or young conservative )
 
I think it really is a long term problem, Antoine.

Never before have so many young people been enjoying wine when out of an evening in London as they do now. I cant speak for Hartlepool, Derby or Exeter, but I can for Paris and other similar capital and large cities (SF, NYC, Berlin, Vienna even). The wine bars have almost taken over from pubs in many parts of London. What are all these people drinking? Well, it's not Bordeaux.

I just read an article today on how one of the travel guide companies is listing Bordeaux as one of its "Cities you must visit". Bordeaux had changed dramatically when I visited last year. In the 1980s and 90s it was dull, and Alain Juppé (among others) has done so much to make it exciting and interesting. I'm guessing a lot of Bordeaux wine gets drunk in the city's bars and restaurants, but I just don't think that is replicated elsewhere. Certainly not in Paris. I know places, not all of then trendy dives full of vegans with beards, which wouldn't be seen dead serving Bordeaux. This is purely an anti-snob reaction to the snooty 1855 owners' club. Burgundy gets off the hook because there are plenty of people who hide the BMW in the garage and maintain the horny handed son of toil image (and to be fair, some of the big domaines are run by people who actually live there, and there are still plenty of "peasant farmers").

We know a few French families and it's the same. Parents drink mostly Bordeaux, kids drink spirits or natural wines. Bordeaux needs to wake up. Plenty of industries from the 70s/80s went under for failure to modernise. Plenty of brands fall away because they don't look to their image. Bordeaux is complacent. They say "we are the best, look how much money we make comapered to other regions", yet the real farmers in Bordeaux are living on a pittance, trying to survive from one harvest to the next.

The criticism in France is that Burgundy is Catholic and Bordeaux Protestant. The implication in that unfair and not very PC assertion is that Burgundy is about pleasure and Bordeaux about money. But the grain of truth is that capitalism in Bordeaux works like it does in a modern state - very little trickle down of the benefits to those below the top of the "pyramide".
 
Hi David,

Asimov a great wine writer? Funny, I always considered him more of a dilettante journalist. I see that he has written two books, but believe these are compilations of his newspaper articles.

I don’t think the great growths make a point of stifling the lesser wines. They just garner all the media attention (not just by accident – they work at it too, of course).

The sheer variety of Bordeaux makes it nearly impossible to stay on top of things. The journos/critics who come in March/April, even if they taste like machines, only scratch the surface of what Bordeaux produces, and end up sampling mostly crus classes.
They don’t have time to look any further if they only devote one week a year.
The thought of spending that same week investigating the “lesser regions” never crosses their mind (or, should I say, most of them).

The Chinese market was indeed once as you said, but has matured very quickly. The fact that the Chinese now own over 120 châteaux helps to account for this improved knowledge.

I like what you write here, but don’t understand the last part “they don’t get a look in”.
And what “pétillant naturel” are you referring to?
“I really want Bordeaux to be seen for it's decent and honest wines made by family producers. I want to see innovation too, both in winemaking (though not necessarily following the producer who made Bordeaux's first ever pétillant naturel, quite nice but very expensive) and in marketing. But you must admit that where these guys exist, they don't get a look in”.

You say that Bordeaux “IS...CURRENTLY...a wine pretty much bought by old farts and young conservatives (that's with a little c)”. That may be on the English market, which you know infinitely better than I do, but this stodgy reputation seems to be a special facet (in some quarters) of the US and UK. My point is simply that if you ask people from a number of other countries, you do not find this. So the blowback from anglophones is perplexing.

You write “This is because the wines in the specialist wine merchants cost so much, and the ones in our supermarkets are generally CRAP!”
Yes, an unfortunate amount of it is poor or mediocre. Which makes me wonder why the supermarkets don’t do their job better and promote the good affordable wines.
If you go to French, Belgian, or Swiss supermarkets, the choice is much greater and the level much better than in Britain.
Perhaps the equation “Bordeaux = great growths” (or, if hard pressed, crus bourgeois…) cannot be changed in some places, and there’s no point beating your head against a brick wall :).

Your criticism of the Bordeaux powers-that-be is, of course, justified. The problem comes, in part, from the fact that while investing in marketing, advertising, tastings, and travel is second nature to the Figeacs and Ducru-Beaucaillous of this world, the other guys don’t have the dough. And generic promotions for 60 appellations are a bit like whistling in the wind…

As for the blame game, I do, in fact, factor in the close-mindedness and prejudice of people who think they know a lot more they really do about one of the world’s great wine regions. People who only touch the surface and don’t have the time, energy, or desire to go to the heartland.
You’ll say “but there are so many other regions to look at”.
Fair enough, but then don’t put yourself (rhetorical you) forward as someone who knows French wines.

Best,
Alex
 
David,
it's like waves. When I joined the virtual wine world you got hammered by nearly everybody when you confessed to enjoy Burgundy. Today Burgundy is everybodies darling and you nearly have to drink Jura or Chinon wines at least once a week .
Bordeaux was always the conservative middle of the road wine where you could live the dream by buying Chasse Spleen, Beychevelle, Lynch Bages, Margaux, even Petrus depending on your mood and wallet. It was affordable for students, I started while studying, and sometimes you could participate in the upper ten world by saving for a 60 DM bottle of 1er cru. Today it's different: if you join the Bordeaux world nowadays you will most probably know that you won't get a chance drinking a Margaux, Petrus without mortgaging your not existing home. And that annoys people, that's driving them away from Bordeaux. They don't want only potatoes they want some meat from time to time as well. It's not the quality - I think it will be difficult to find a region producing so many bottles on such a high quality level - it's the financial interest disguised as an elitist approach taken by Bordeauxs leaders.
Looking back at more than 40 years of wine drinking I don't see a region ( perhaps beside rural Burgundy or early Piedmont - mostly because of the opportunity to deal directly with the winemakers ) which has provided so much pleasure for me. It will come back after it has learned it's lesson, sooner or later. Their future won't be sponsoring Bloggers, writers by letting them participate in their grandezza, their future is to see how a pyramide is built.
Cheers
Rainer ( old fart or young conservative )
Rainer, I'm an old fart, don't you see. I cut my teeth on Bordeaux, I have drunk the best in the past, I still enjoy the stuff, have never sold my bottles of it, and I want to see the region succeed at all levels, not just at the level which now prefers to sell to the Chinese and Russian oligarchs, and is no longer affordable by me, let alone my children.

My first bottles of First Growth Bordeaux were from 1983. Latour and Mouton are as far removed from my children now as a trip to Mars is for me.

Bordeaux as a brand is as much taken over by the snooty absentee owners of wines which think they are so much better than any other wines in the world as our Labour Party has been taken over by the extreme left. There's no promotion of Petits Châteaux that I ever see, and hardly ever of Crus Bourgeois either. I hope that the pendulum does swing back, but the CIVB need to mend the clock first.

As to the sponsoring of wine bloggers, does that happen? I write a stunningly brilliant Blog, and no one has ever given me a single thing (I lie, just once a merchant sent me a bottle of wine, but after I'd written about it, out of the blue). The bloggers I know are more independent than some names in the business, judging by certain stories over the past couple of years.
 
David,

I think your comment about the French market for Bordeaux is inaccurate.

Maybe the bobos in Paris don't drink it, but the French people, the real ones, do. Massively.

Heck, what else would they drink if they want a fine French red wine?
Burgundy is scarce. Bordeaux is everywhere.
The average person doesn't know Côte Rôtie or Bourgueil, except in the régions of production.

Alex
 
The really good small growers of Bordeaux are struggling, Alex. They can't sell their wine and they can't get a decent cent for it. Am I not right?

There is, of course, a wine lake of Bordeaux. That's why the CIVB is so keen to ship as much as possible to China.

Why?

Because this lake is bottled mainly by "merchants", not small farmers. It used to fill UK supermarkets, but not any more - it's all Chile, Argentina, Australia, but also Spain and Italy. To a degree it still fills French supermarkets. It certainly does in terms of percentages, along with Côtes du Rhône AOP wines. The Foires are full of the stuff, often dodgy back vintages that "La Place" can't shift on the open market.

Bobos - not really a nice thing to call young, educated people who are maybe just starting out on a road to enjoying wine.

The "real French" drink Bordeaux? That statement, and a discussion of who might the "real French" be, would, I can tell you, lead to a very lively debate in the wine bars of London, and perhaps we should not go there (we've had enough trouble of that sort on the brexit threads). But what is a FACT is that wine consumption has gone down in France. It has gone down most dramatically among young people. So yes, maybe the hypermarkets are shifting more Bordeaux and CdR than anything else, but it is incontrovertibly less than five, ten or twenty years ago.

So I'm not sure my comments really are innacurate. I know you are a passionate defender of Bordeaux, Alex. I do respect you, totally. But I don't think that what I say in this post is wrong. The reason wine grabs the attention of young people here is that they are spun a story (sometimes true, sometimes embellished a little) about farmers, close to the earth, making honest wines. They don't want to identify with wine made by LVMH or the House of Chanel, and nor do they want to identify with stuff bottled by Ginestet, Sichel and others, often under a made up Château label, or "Finest Bordeaux" (think about that statement - finest, really? If you thought some of the cheaper Bordeaux on the market was genuinely the finest available you'd never buy a second bottle).

It's true that the average French person is quite ignorant of their wonderful vinous patrimony outside of the classic three (Bordeaux, Burgundy, Champagne) plus whatever they make in their own back yard. I'll tell you something - the young folks who drink in the same wine bars as I do occasionally know about Côte Rotie and Bourgeuil, though they may not be able to afford the former very often.
 
David,
It isn't you, you are an au contraire Blogger and yours is more philosophical Blog :). I mean something Else and you know it.
Cheers
Rainer
Sorry Rainer. Who do I read - Matt Walls, Jamie Goode, Jim Budd, Alan March, Steve Slatcher and a few others I can't think of right now. All of these are, afaik, pretty independent. Blogging is interesting. My family keep saying I should monetise my Blog. I think it's because I spend so much time writing it, and so little time earning any money these days. They can't understand that I need to be independent, and to be able to criticise, so that when I'm positive people know I mean it. Mind you, Berry Bros, if you are looking for a new place to stick your banner............................................:D
 
[QUOTE="David Crossley, post: 41558, member: 204]

You mention China's imports - well, in my view, China imports whatever they can get to sell to an unsuspecting public at inflated prices, and when they can't get enough they just manufacture it themselves (I've been following a young wine couple in China at the moment and have seen some extraordinary fakes).

[/QUOTE]

This is the reason why I have always carried 4 to 6 bottles of wines with me on trips to China. I have never bought a single bottle of wine in China despite being regular traveler there since 2003. When I run out of wines, I just drink beers.
 
I’m at a loss to see what was “snooty” about the Asimov article. I thought it was a fairly balanced article that introduced his readers to the current issues plaguing Bordeaux before going on to review the wines he tasted. He was addressing his readers and please recall that the title of his column is The Innate, Ageless Appeal of Good Bordeaux.

To me some of the things he said has been interpreted a bit to severely but I will not go into the details. Frankly I get the impression that poor Mr Asimov made the mistake of not getting his opinions vetted by the Bordeaux censors. Also, anybody who wants to comment on what Asimov said had better realize that they too should have their opinions vetted by our resident expert because they should know that they do not have the requisite experience and depth of knowledge that is required to truly understand Bordeaux. Unlike other regions Bordeaux is not for amateurs like us - it is a difficult to understand, complex region that requires in-depth knowledge and vast experience. In addition it might be useful to live there too.

Cheers ............................ Mahmoud.
 
What David says about the UK scene certainly is reflected in the Norwegian scene. Bordeaux is totally marginalized except for a few top wines collected by the wealthy.
 
I wouldn't characterise Asimov's article as snooty, but as rather boring. Hardly more than a series of commonplaces, and a few superficial, short tasting notes... :)
 
Last edited:
David,

Whether the wine in the lower end is bottled by negociants or growers is largely beside the point. Having worked for several of the former, I certainly have no bias against them. They are technically often light years ahead of growers.

You wrote: “The "real French" drink Bordeaux? That statement, and a discussion of who might the "real French" be, would, I can tell you, lead to a very lively debate in the wine bars of London”.
I’m not sure that what is discussed in the wine bars of London is of much importance to me…

You write: “The reason wine grabs the attention of young people here is that they are spun a story (sometimes true, sometimes embellished a little) about farmers, close to the earth, making honest wines. They don't want to identify with wine made by LVMH or the House of Chanel, and nor do they want to identify with stuff bottled by Ginestet, Sichel and others, often under a made up Château label”
Bordeaux has a long and proud history, and the hang-ups some people have with “corporate” Bordeaux goes hand in hand with their ignorance of the region’s driving forces. The amount of disinformation about Bordeaux, such as you wrote makes one want to scream! I went to visit four châteaux today. Two were great growths (one, Cantenac Brown, owned by an Englishman) but two others diametrically opposed to the image you present.
Those 2 were Château Julia and Château Moutte Blanc, also in the Médoc. Lovely, inexpensive wines made by people passionate about what they do. Light years away from what you say.

No, bitch about the price of the great growths, and I’ll be there throwing stones with you. But don’t try to generalize about thousands of estates. That’s just plain ridiculous (OK, David, my comment about the “real French” was a little OTT too).

Alex
 
I must confess I bought a few bottles of "Chanel" in 2015... first time for many years I bought some Bordeaux en primeur... They are supposed to be excellent!... Maybe Karl Lagerfeld added some special scents in there...
 
I'm not really sure how Bordeaux can fix this problem.

On the left bank alone, I know (and love) the 1855 classed growths, though my opportunities to taste the best of them are few & far between. I am familiar with the crus bourgeois (some, but not all), and perhaps a handful of other Chateaux I have tasted over the years & have made something memorable. And that's such a small fraction of what's available. How on earth do I navigate through everything else when it's so seldom reported on, and (honestly) such a minefield?

I'll admit that, despite loving the wines of this region, I often find myself reluctant to hand over £20 for a bottle from the Rhone, from Australia, from Tuscany or Piedmont than I am handing over the same note for a bottle from an unrecognised Chateau in an unfashionable Bordeaux Appellation. And I'll admit that's totally illogical too.

So what do these Bordeaux producers do? Is it a question of trying to tread their own path, rather than riding on the coat tails of their bigger brothers, who will always overshadow them? I get a sense they're trying to do this, if only based on the adverts I see on the tube from the CIVB. But I'm not convinced this is really enough - I think there has to be a real distinction in these wines beyond being a slightly toned down version of the 5th Growth up the road. What that is, and how they go about it... I don't know, but David I think is right about Bordeaux needing to put itself back on the agenda in the wine bars of London (and I suppose Paris, though I wouldn't know), and hope that a rising tide will lift all ships.
 
Top