TN Nick’s 2002 Burgundy @ Noizé

So, it looks as though 2001 is potentially more consistent and interesting than 2002. Thanks for the notes Simon.
The two vintages are at a very different stage of evolution in my experience. 01 has consistently been the more enjoyable vintage over at least the last 15 years but IMO it's time to drink nearly all of them, whereas good 02s are just getting into gear.
at a correct temperature
To me that is more important than producer, vintage, vineyard and anything else one might care to mention. Warm red burgundy is a crime against humanity( though obviously a relatively minor one). In recent years I have put red burgundies for offlines in the fridge for a few hours and transported them in a cooling sleeve. Even in the middle of winter they come out at the right temperature.
At least three bottles from the same case :(
Just coming to the end of a case of Pommard Pezerolles 98. 8 out of eleven have been corked. I love the Montilles of this period but something was clearly amiss.
 
Thanks everyone for your great company and generosity. Really fun to enjoy these wines with such a group.

I was delighted with the 2 chablis, having expected the fevre to be poxed or just not very good. This was as good as it gets for this notoriously unreliable wine. The raveneau poured out looking like it was a barrel sample. The palest yellow colour imaginable for a white burgundy, let alone one 20 years’ old. Classic wet wool and hints of oyster shell but needed another decade at least. Only nit with both these wines was a strong sense of alcohol, even heat, on the finish.

Funny how there were such different reactions to some of the reds. For me, the jadot csj was hands down the best wine of the night. Absolutely ravishing in it’s fruit profile and texture. I really liked the wildness of the maume too, although it did fade with air. The drouhin-laroze beze was shut down hard and the glasses clearly didn’t help.

The nuits flight was really interesting. For me, the chevillon was just textbook nuits. Unapologetically black fruit and with a gorgeous precision and silky texture. Loved it. The mugneret was really distinctive with its alluringly fragrant nose and red/black fruit.

I really didn’t get the wow factor that most people got with the arnoux rsv. Then again, I’ve always found Arnoux wines to be quite sombre and lacking joi de vivre. Again, I suspect the glasses really didn’t help.
 
Claude-- You may well be correct. On reflection, I think it was the other top Pommard domaine (Comte Armand) that I had the problem with. It was a very long time ago but I can still almost smell and even taste the burnt rubber in his wines.
 
Howard -- Something is amiss here. Yves Confuron (of Domaine Confuron-Cotétidot) has been making the wines at de Courcel since 1996 (see 2nd edition of Jasper's Inside Burgundy, p. 498 -- and I can confirm as I tasted the 2002s from barrel in 2003 and from bottle in 2004 with Yves), and he continues to make the wines there. Jasper calls it one of the greatest estates in Pommard, I would go further, and for me it is the greatest estate in Pommard. I did not buy the 2002 Grands Epenots, which probably means that I did not find it or did not find it at a satisfactory price, but I have the 2002 Rugiens in my cellar. Alas, the wine is in San Francisco and I am in Paris, so I can't immediately pull a bottle to check on it.

Re the suggestion that oak dominated the Grands Epenots: very little to no new oak was used on that wine or any wine at de Courcel. Likely it was reduction (which can be very difficult to tell from new oak) or the effect of 100% whole clusters (which affects different people in different ways).

The comments in this thread prompted me to open a bottle of de Courcel Pommard Grands Epenots 2002.

Classic de Courcel. A sombre, dark red in the glass with a grudgingly enticing nose. Ripe dark cherries, some leather and a certain recalcitrance that adds to the allure. This is a large scale, powerful Pommard with superb old vine texture and formidable tannins (remember those?) that even after 20 years are a joy to behold. The signature stems seem to be perfectly integrated though no doubt remain part of the picture. The greatest estate in Pommard? Quite possibly. But Pommard like everywhere else in Burgundy seems to be fast reinventing itself which makes unreconstructed Pommard like this all the more pleasurable.
 
Classic de Courcel. A sombre, dark red in the glass with a grudgingly enticing nose. Ripe dark cherries, some leather and a certain recalcitrance that adds to the allure. This is a large scale, powerful Pommard with superb old vine texture and formidable tannins (remember those?) that even after 20 years are a joy to behold. The signature stems seem to be perfectly integrated though no doubt remain part of the picture. The greatest estate in Pommard? Quite possibly. But Pommard like everywhere else in Burgundy seems to be fast reinventing itself which makes unreconstructed Pommard like this all the more pleasurable.
Sounds like the sort of wine that only a true afficiando would appreciate!
 
The comments in this thread prompted me to open a bottle of de Courcel Pommard Grands Epenots 2002.

Classic de Courcel. A sombre, dark red in the glass with a grudgingly enticing nose. Ripe dark cherries, some leather and a certain recalcitrance that adds to the allure. This is a large scale, powerful Pommard with superb old vine texture and formidable tannins (remember those?) that even after 20 years are a joy to behold. The signature stems seem to be perfectly integrated though no doubt remain part of the picture. The greatest estate in Pommard? Quite possibly. But Pommard like everywhere else in Burgundy seems to be fast reinventing itself which makes unreconstructed Pommard like this all the more pleasurable.
The most tantalising tasting note of the year, without doubt!
 
Sorry for slow response. As indicated above it was a tricky night on table 1. Perhaps not entirely unexpected - I was hoping this dinner might reverse my rather jaundiced opinion of 02 reds but quite the reverse. Perhaps some bad luck, perhaps asking for trouble with some of the wines, perhaps temperature, perhaps glasses. Or just perhaps this vintage is never going to turn into a swan. At least at any sort of sensible price levels - notable that even on table 2, with one honourable exception (the Chevillon), all the top wines would be north of £500.

Still, it was a fun night and thanks to everyone for making the absolute best of it! And thanks to Nick for all the work in putting it together.

Group scores and my brief notes below. Table on the same basis as Ian's but only voting for the top 3 - 3 marks being the top wine. Notable that the 8 reds between them scored less than the 4 white/Champagnes, and that's without scoring Simon R's beer....

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Piper Heidsieck Rare 2002 Very classic, fine boned, lacks a bit of breadth. Open and developed but not yet really mature. 5+/7. A Champagne very nearly made it into my top 3!!
Pouilly-Fuisse Collection Privee, Ch de Fuisse 2002 Dull, slightly oxidised nose. Bit dried out with a 1 dimensional, sharp/dry finish and a lot of oak. 4/7
Meursault Genevrieres, Darviot Perrin 2002 Fresher nose, though still a bit of sulphur. Very well made, zippy, fine acidity. Touch hard on the end - still young?! Interesting and a class apart in this flight 6-/7
Chassagne-Montrachet Blanchots Dessus, Darviot Perrin 2002 Flat, dieselly nose, flavoursome and fat but completely lacking acidity and is short. 4+/7
Volnay Brouillards, de Montille 2002 Nose jammy but at same time dirty, diffuse, tart and yes probably ultimately corked. NR
Volnay Taillepieds, de Montille 2002 Cleaner, fresher nose though a bit gallumphing. Austere and a bit short. Nearly has Burgundian perfume but not quite. Perfectly pleasant though not exciting. 5+/7
Savigny Les Vergelesses, Bize 2002 Very, very tight nose. Sweet velvety, more giving than the Montilles, very pleasant drink, not much Burgundian distinctiveness. 5+/7
Pommard Les Vignots, Aleth Girardin 2002 Odd nose this, minty, not very pinoty, very tannic finish. Not unpleasant, but again - Burgundy? 4+/7
Pommard Les Epenots, de Courcel 2002 Murky, oaky nose deep but lacking finesse. Leather, stewed fruit. Concentrated. Interesting but what is it? 5-/7
NSG Clos des Porrets St Georges, Gouges 2002 Decent nose, pleasant mid palate but brutal finish, 1 dimensional and tough, tough. 4/7
Clos de la Roche, Potel 2002 Better, pleasantly balanced wine, enjoyable, not especially complex, Clos de la Roche?? 5/7
Clos des Lambrays, des Lambrays 2002 Fungal, off. NR
 
Sorry for slow response. As indicated above it was a tricky night on table 1. Perhaps not entirely unexpected - I was hoping this dinner might reverse my rather jaundiced opinion of 02 reds but quite the reverse. Perhaps some bad luck, perhaps asking for trouble with some of the wines, perhaps temperature, perhaps glasses. Or just perhaps this vintage is never going to turn into a swan. At least at any sort of sensible price levels - notable that even on table 2, with one honourable exception (the Chevillon), all the top wines would be north of £500.

Still, it was a fun night and thanks to everyone for making the absolute best of it! And thanks to Nick for all the work in putting it together.

Group scores and my brief notes below. Table on the same basis as Ian's but only voting for the top 3 - 3 marks being the top wine. Notable that the 8 reds between them scored less than the 4 white/Champagnes, and that's without scoring Simon R's beer....

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Piper Heidsieck Rare 2002 Very classic, fine boned, lacks a bit of breadth. Open and developed but not yet really mature. 5+/7. A Champagne very nearly made it into my top 3!!
Pouilly-Fuisse Collection Privee, Ch de Fuisse 2002 Dull, slightly oxidised nose. Bit dried out with a 1 dimensional, sharp/dry finish and a lot of oak. 4/7
Meursault Genevrieres, Darviot Perrin 2002 Fresher nose, though still a bit of sulphur. Very well made, zippy, fine acidity. Touch hard on the end - still young?! Interesting and a class apart in this flight 6-/7
Chassagne-Montrachet Blanchots Dessus, Darviot Perrin 2002 Flat, dieselly nose, flavoursome and fat but completely lacking acidity and is short. 4+/7
Volnay Brouillards, de Montille 2002 Nose jammy but at same time dirty, diffuse, tart and yes probably ultimately corked. NR
Volnay Taillepieds, de Montille 2002 Cleaner, fresher nose though a bit gallumphing. Austere and a bit short. Nearly has Burgundian perfume but not quite. Perfectly pleasant though not exciting. 5+/7
Savigny Les Vergelesses, Bize 2002 Very, very tight nose. Sweet velvety, more giving than the Montilles, very pleasant drink, not much Burgundian distinctiveness. 5+/7
Pommard Les Vignots, Aleth Girardin 2002 Odd nose this, minty, not very pinoty, very tannic finish. Not unpleasant, but again - Burgundy? 4+/7
Pommard Les Epenots, de Courcel 2002 Murky, oaky nose deep but lacking finesse. Leather, stewed fruit. Concentrated. Interesting but what is it? 5-/7
NSG Clos des Porrets St Georges, Gouges 2002 Decent nose, pleasant mid palate but brutal finish, 1 dimensional and tough, tough. 4/7
Clos de la Roche, Potel 2002 Better, pleasantly balanced wine, enjoyable, not especially complex, Clos de la Roche?? 5/7
Clos des Lambrays, des Lambrays 2002 Fungal, off. NR
Chris you briefly touched on the issue of temperature in your post…was it an issue that contributed the overall disappointment with the wines? Only one of our wines was clearly served too warm - the Jadot CSJ - and it suffered significantly for it in my book though it scored highly with the rest of the table.
 
Yes it's possibly part of the problem and we've discussed it many times in lots of contexts. I had my wine in the fridge at home but after the journey and a couple of hours at the restaurant it was at room temperature which I'm sure must be in the low/mid-20s. We always think this tends to emphasis structural elements at the expense of aromatic ones. But it shouldn't completely eliminate the finer points of the wines and on table 1 there were very few to be found anywhere.

I also had quick tastes of 3 or 4 of table 2's NSG flight (thanks Dan!) after they'd been sitting in the glasses for at least 30 mins so would have been at the same temperature as ours, and they clearly had more finesse and Burgundian elements. Any of the Grivot, Chevillon and Mugneret-Gibourg would have been WOTN on our table comfortably, I would think. The Tardy seemed to be more in table 1 mode though!
 
I don't think one can meaningfully assess warm burgundy, so I guess a kind of randomness kicks in, though 17C is certainly better than 25C. On the other hand I remember a couple of IMW tastings when the great and the good were cheerfully scoring soup-temperature wines, so it could just be me!
 
By extension, at a recent Oregon Pinot Noir dinner attended at Medlar, the wines were served admirably cool, and guess what? The Pinot Noirs showed very well indeed, although the classic 2019 vintage helped.

Also on a recent trip to Hawksmoor Canary Wharf where I brought a bottle of Domaine Drouhin Oregon Willamette Valley PN, I asked the Somm to cool it down before serving. It wasn't particularly warm, but just think PN needs to be served cool. From reading some of the posts above, it makes me wonder if opportunities have been missed to ask for the reds to be cooled down upon arrival when too close to room temperature?

I also find Nebbiolo similarly sensitive, and some of us may recall the notorious Ultravino event in summer 2019 when we got to drink through soupy 2015 and 2016 Piedmont! I think James Taylor regretted turning down the restaurant's offer of chilling the wines in the fromagerie beforehand as he worried they might smell of cheese!
 
We had a lunch at my house in the scorching summer of I think 2018 where 2 x 42 litre Really Useful Boxes were pressed into service as water baths in the kitchen. One for whites and one for reds. The red one was maintained at 17C by the judicious addition of a handful of ice cubes every 30 minutes or so. Temperature was monitored by a wireless digital thermometer with a display in the dining room. All good fun and the wines showed brilliantly.

But yet again (cf the Bordeaux WIMPS thread) I'm reminded of the lengths people go to to love Burgundy. With Bordeaux we make judgments, for Burgundy we make excuses (wrong temperature, wrong glass, soil day etc) :)
 
Sometimes they just aren't any good, it is true, though that seems to me to apply at least as much to Bordeaux and for that matter all other wines, which can sometimes support higher temperatures even if they aren't desirable.
 
By extension, at a recent Oregon Pinot Noir dinner attended at Medlar, the wines were served admirably cool, and guess what? The Pinot Noirs showed very well indeed, although the classic 2019 vintage helped.

Also on a recent trip to Hawksmoor Canary Wharf where I brought a bottle of Domaine Drouhin Oregon Willamette Valley PN, I asked the Somm to cool it down before serving. It wasn't particularly warm, but just think PN needs to be served cool. From reading some of the posts above, it makes me wonder if opportunities have been missed to ask for the reds to be cooled down upon arrival when too close to room temperature?

I also find Nebbiolo similarly sensitive, and some of us may recall the notorious Ultravino event in summer 2019 when we got to drink through soupy 2015 and 2016 Piedmont! I think James Taylor regretted turning down the restaurant's offer of chilling the wines in the fromagerie beforehand as he worried they might smell of cheese!

One of the plusses of Piccolino is that we have our own ice bucket fleet so can generally managed the temperatures of the (generally clarets) wines we serve. And I do apologise for the downstairs dinner in Sept 2020 where I fell asleep at the wheel and forgot to remove a particular wine until just before pouring. Much hand cupping was required on that one! But... A wine served on the cool side can be warmed up the other way round? Not so much!
 
Not a direct answer to this thread but more around the topic.
I love offline meet ups and Wimps.
But over the years I have gradually accepted that even with the very best attention of Sommeliers and teams it is not fair to expect that a commercial environment will match my silliness about Glasses, Glass cleaning regime, temperature etc,etc.
I have therefore stopped getting stressed out about how the very best of bottles will show by drinking them at home or in a domestic set up, say at a wine friends home.
I was getting to be a bit of a nightmare to share a table with so I have tried to modify / manage what I take where and what my expectation should be.
That is not to say that expectations should not be high if arranging a night like Howard's 1st Growth dinners.
Just as devils advocate
Good luck to any Sommelier trying to satisfy two tables of Burgundy enthusiasts....at any time!
I note that both champagnes showed well... I'll get my coato_O;)

Just a further thought that despite all my fretting and faffing mentioned above
The greatest bottles seem to transcend any issues
Its the ones that are just not up to it that we all witter about.
 
I'm a bit like Ray in that I try not to obsess about what I can't control in a restaurant - up to a point. However, the two things that are vital for red burgundy are the correct (or at least a sympathetic) glass shape and the temperature. Bordeaux and the N. Rhone are a little more tolerant of average/smaller glasses and slightly higher temperatures, but even here the latter matters considerably as Neil H attests above. I'm beginning to not want to go burgundy events where the glassware is genuinely problematic, although I shall probably have to waive that concern for Burgundy WIMPS and the Jadotfests. In the end, nearly every event has some kind of trade-off and I'd rather see people and enjoy life rather than stay at home alone sipping a wine served at the perfect temperature from perfect glassware. A dinner at 67 Pall Mall before Christmas showed what a difference the correct glassware can make though.
 
Whilst I am not a Burgundy fan my knowledge is very limited as to which glass is correct for Burgundy. As a rule a use Gabriel glas glasses for all of my wine needs.
 
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