Organic farming

[Tom Mann]

Just back from a trip to the Mosel tasting the 2021s, and whilst I'm not going to go into that right now because I have a commercial interest there, I was inspired by this article on WineSearcher here to post this photo. On the left is Daniel Vollenwieder's biodynamic vines in Wolfer Goldgrube. On the right, not his vines, which have just been treated with herbicide. Daniel's vines were healthy, vigorous and filled with bees, butterflies and all sorts of wild flowers. On the right, nothing. The difference was also equally apparent in Morstein, looking at Keller's plot and other vines no more than 50 yards away.

 

[Tom De Vecchi]

I'm not going to go out on a limb and venture an opinion as to whether the wine on the left will taste better than that on the right (even if this is a so-called "wine" forum), but the right hand side of the picture does look rather sad compared to the left.

 

[max.oldfield]

Absolutely Tom.

 

[Steve Slatcher]

It looks exactly like what you would expect if you'd just treated an area with weed killer. And if the area on the left had been left in its natural state, it might well be covered with shrubs and trees supporting a much broader range of fauna.

In some other parts of the world where there are vineyards (maybe not so many places), the land would be totally barren were it not for man's intervention, and no weeds grow between the vines regardless.

I'm not saying organic farming isn't preferable, but it's also important to realise that vineyards are not natural environments either, however beautiful they seem to us.

 

[Steven Pritchard]

True Steve, but man-made farming methods benefit from constructed eco-systems, rather than the “kill everything else” approach of the 20th century. Organic farming certainly isn’t natural, but perhaps a bit more sympathetic.

 

[ian clarke]

Just back from a trip to the Mosel tasting the 2021s, and whilst I'm not going to go into that right now because I have a commercial interest there, I was inspired by this article on WineSearcher here to post this photo. On the left is Daniel Vollenwieder's biodynamic vines in Wolfer Goldgrube. On the right, not his vines, which have just been treated with herbicide. Daniel's vines were healthy, vigorous and filled with bees, butterflies and all sorts of wild flowers. On the right, nothing. The difference was also equally apparent in Morstein, looking at Keller's plot and other vines no more than 50 yards away.

View attachment 25256

Thanks Tom

 

[Chris Hambleton]

What a stark contrast. Extraordinary that a patch of land literally right next to a non-organic one can be called organic, but I guess this shows how that can work. It also shows that the neighbour was exceedingly careful with the spray.

 

[Russell Faulkner]

It would be sprayed by helicopter at least in part I think? They are pretty accurate I hear.

 

[Colin Wills]

Not always. Olivier Humbrecht went to visit a neighbour after a helicopter sprayed inaccurately. I'd like to have seen that.

 

[Tom Mann]

Yes Daniel said they spray their organic mixtures by helicopter - they get pretty close to the vines I think 6-8 metres away.

 

[Michael Kerr]

I remember being surprised when I read many years ago that Bordeaux mixture is permitted in organic farming, as is copper sulphate on its own. Though only slightly toxic to humans, copper sulphate is highly toxic to fish and earthworms. It does not biodegrade in water so any runoff presents real problems.
I am not sure if its use is still permitted.

 

[Colin Wills]

You're still allowed 6kgs of copper per ha per annum in the EU as far as I know for organic viticulture and half that in biodynamic. It is pernicious and stays in the ground of course apart from any run-off. And it's not just in viticulture. You see municipal bushes and all sorts of crops with the telltale blue stains on the leaves.

 

[Graeme Harvie]

Wonder how many committed organic / biodynamic viticulturalists actually use copper?

 

[Colin Wills]

I'd say most organic and many fewer biodynamic farmers. The latter are working with more resilient material in their opinion. Gross generalisation of course.

 

[Michael Kerr]

As I am Irish I have very mixed feelings about the use of blue vitriol. Had its efficacy against mildew in potatoes been widely known in 1845, The Great Hunger might have been averted.
We cannot change the past. No wish to be political.
But it is toxic. I have not grown potatoes in my garden for more than 20 years for this reason.
Hey ho.

 

[Steve Slatcher]

I'd say most organic and many fewer biodynamic farmers. The latter are working with more resilient material in their opinion. Gross generalisation of course.

It also depends on climate and weather. In some places and in some circumstances, it's not needed anyway.

Another reason you might not need copper sulphate is because you are using modern alternatives that are better for the environment, but sadly forbidden by organic regs.

 

[Colin Wills]

Very true. I mostly got sent to the greyer, damper places.

 

[Leon Marks]

I have to say the use of lots of copper sulfate instead of tiny amounts of roundup, say, is my biggest problem with “organic” farming.

Semi related - I remember being told by the UK importer that Cheateau Musar is farmed organically. I asked who the Lebanese organic certification body was - she told me that they flew in the Italian one. Once per year.

 

[Colin Wills]

The two do different jobs of course and one of the first things conscientious winegrowers do is stop lathering herbicides over their land.

 

[Sean Howe]

It would be sprayed by helicopter at least in part I think? They are pretty accurate I hear.

I cannot imagine anyone in a vineyard spraying herbicide by a helicopter, fungicide maybe.

The issue with organics is that it is exclusionary. A bit like advocating the use of sulfa drugs, when modern alternatives are more effective.

 

[Geordie Torr]

I cannot imagine anyone in a vineyard spraying herbicide by a helicopter, fungicide maybe.

I was thinking the same thing. If that vineyard had been sprayed with herbicide from a helicopter presumably there wouldn't have been any vines left.

 

[Graeme Harvie]

The issue with organics is that it is exclusionary. A bit like advocating the use of sulfa drugs, when modern alternatives are more effective.

Be that as it may, organic fruit tastes noticeably better than non organic fruit (or at leaet it does to me!), in particular apples and bananas(!)

 

[Leon Marks]

Be that as it may, organic fruit tastes noticeably better than non organic fruit (or at leaet it does to me!), in particular apples and bananas(!)

Correlation

xkcd.com

 

[Thom Blach]

Be that as it may, organic fruit tastes noticeably better than non organic fruit (or at leaet it does to me!), in particular apples and bananas(!)

I suspect that organic status is by far the least important variable here. The banana can actually be quite a palatable fruit though one wouldn't know it from the kinds sold here, and with apples yield and variety are the key to excellence.

 

[Graeme Harvie]

I suspect that organic status is by far the least important variable here. The banana can actually be quite a palatable fruit though one wouldn't know it from the kinds sold here, and with apples yield and variety are the key to excellence.

I agree wrt bananas eaten outside of the UK. In the tropics they taste better than ever and I've never known if they were organic or not.