Bordeaux EP 2023

[Sean Hardon]

Not specifically when I know where and how things have been stored (ie my big bear with provenance which dies hard growing up around antiques where even people who know my late mother will ask me for details of things she had) No guarantees however as IB just means it’s never been taxed in the Uk. Wines do come from cellars overseas and then sold IB here.

The youth of today eh Jono? Buying wines that they'd like to taste in 10, 15 years time and for a further 20 and being able to say, wasn't 23 a gorgeous vintage? Rather than assessing saving tuppence and drinking 2010 now?

Isn't choice glorious!

 

[Jonathan Beagle]

Don’t get me wrong Sean… I’ve also been backfilling… but only where I know where and how stuff has been stored so I’ve paid a premium for ex-Chateau (picked up a bunch of Beychevelle that way in all formats) and from cellars where they were stored with the merchants who sold the wines originally and it’s sat there! I’m getting to the point where buying “new vintages” of any area will need to end within the next three to five years… otherwise I won’t be around for long enough to enjoy them. That’s probably when I’ll buy to sell to then backfill with drinking wines! But yes… choice is a wonderful thing.

 

[Vinod Stalam]

I didn’t buy anything, but haven’t since 2019 and it’s hard to imagine prices will be 10-12% lower/harder to find once they are in bottle unless your looking for non-standard formats.

That being said, back-vintage Bordeaux feels like one of the best values in high end wine today.

 

[Gareth Germain]

Not specifically when I know where and how things have been stored (ie my big bear with provenance which dies hard growing up around antiques where even people who know my late mother will ask me for details of things she had) No guarantees however as IB just means it’s never been taxed in the Uk. Wines do come from cellars overseas and then sold IB here.

I don't know Jono. A quick check with my account manager L&W as to how much ib stuff they have is from overseas cellars yielded an exact 0% of current stock. I've never heard of that myself and never thought to ask. Sounds a bit over-egged as an actual issue. Though I appreciate antiques are a very different proposition.

 

[Jonathan Beagle]

I don't know Jono. A quick check with my account manager L&W as to how much ib stuff they have is from overseas cellars yielded an exact 0% of current stock. I've never heard of that myself and never thought to ask. Sounds a bit over-egged as an actual issue. Though I appreciate antiques are a very different proposition.

With the Rudi K debacle I’m sure that merchants are a lot more picky with this sort of thing than previously… it certainly was significantly more common in the past

 

[Jonathan Beagle]

Not surprised. Troplong Mondot has been the outstanding qpr in St Emilion since the 2018 vintage and is at least as good as Canon. Jono they have dialled down the style significantly since the new owners took over as James notes. My advice is buy the 2020, which as James also notes you can pick up for under £400/6 and/or the 2018 or 2019. I have 2 x 6 packs of the 18, 19 and 20.

Off remembering this post… I picked up a six pack of 2019 for 395/6

 

[Gareth Germain]

Off remembering this post… I picked up a six pack of 2019 for 395/6

It's £380/6 now

 

[Jonathan Beagle]

It's £380/6 now

I don’t know Vinum, I’m not on their list and I know exactly where this six pack came from… like I’ve said earlier I’m a provenance guy and I’ll pay an extra 2.25 a bottle for that privilege

 

[Christopher Topham-Smith]

It's £380/6 now

By the standards of most Bordeaux recently that's actually a creditable performance...

 

[Gareth Germain]

I don’t know Vinum, I’m not on their list and I know exactly where this six pack came from… like I’ve said earlier I’m a provenance guy and I’ll pay an extra 2.25 a bottle for that privilege

Well don't forget the storage costs as well. It just reinforces what a nonsense en primeur has been for the last five years or so. I mean 2019 is a great vintage for TM and a great wine. I think we all just need to stop buying en primeur and get the Bordelais to see sense!

 

[kevin heatherington]

When an average/good vintage coincides with a soft market, like we have now, EP makes no sense at all and the selling system has to just sit it out. But they are loathe to drop their prices too much, let alone move to a new buying system. They also know that a good/great vintage that coincides with more favourable market conditions will always come along soon and that will not only allow them to hike prices for that vintage but impact the whole Bordeaux market upwards and sell all of what they have in their cellars from earlier vintages. That is what happened with the 95/96 vintages and the 05s after a weak market in the previous few years.

 

[Christopher Topham-Smith]

When an average/good vintage coincides with a soft market, like we have now, EP makes no sense at all and the selling system has to just sit it out. But they are loathe to drop their prices too much, let alone move to a new buying system. They also know that a good/great vintage that coincides with more favourable market conditions will always come along soon and that will not only allow them to hike prices for that vintage but impact the whole Bordeaux market upwards and sell all of what they have in their cellars from earlier vintages. That is what happened with the 95/96 vintages and the 05s after a weak market in the previous few years.

That's what the growers/dealers/pundits assured everyone about tulips – and they've been holding out for 'more favourable market conditions' since 1637...

Hendrik Gerritsz Pot, Flora's Wagon of Fools (c. 1637)

 

[Sean Hardon]

That's what the growers/dealers/pundits assured everyone about tulips – and they've been holding out for 'more favourable market conditions' since 1637...

Hendrik Gerritsz Pot, Flora's Wagon of Fools (c. 1637)

Bet they never factored in brexit in 1637

 

[kevin heatherington]

The last serious market correction downwards for Bordeaux was in the 1970s. In my entire drinking life it has gone up in price retail with short periods of a few years at most where there has been some stagnation and zero growth.

 

[Paul Day]

The last serious market correction downwards for Bordeaux was in the 1970s. In my entire drinking life it has gone up in price retail with short periods of a few years at most where there has been some stagnation and zero growth.

First growths fell around 2/3 in terms of UK EP offerings between 2000 vintage and 2002 vintage. Whereas top Burgundy significantly rose over the same time.

Also a substantial correction after 2010: for the 2010 EP offer Latour was offered by TWS at £3100 per three and Lafite at £2975 per three.

Latour is no longer offered EP, but this year Lafite 2023 was £1230 per three from TWS.
If we adjust for inflation, that is a 72% fall in real terms for Lafite offered EP.

 

[Sean Hardon]

For me the first significant rise was 2005. First growths going from £850 to £3500 (approx), from 04 to 05. They held to those prices 06, 07 and lost their nerve in 08, prices on first tranche down to £1900 (for Latour).

I remember thinking at the time, fair play to them, they must resent a punter doubling their money on the back of their hard work within a year. I could understand that as that's what you could have done with first growths back in 04 and 08.

I have to chuckle at the constant annual barrage of disgruntlement at the EP system. I have to wonder if it's because those people don't have joy of the smugness when their wines arrive that they've got Billy bargains printed on their spreadsheets. These same "cute articles" (Norn iron expression) swoon over their £100+ village wines and £30+ Bourgogne Rouges.

For me the value still lies in Claret. I was of the opinion in 2012 that there wasn't much point buying anymore due to my age. But recent vintages in the last 10 years, 15, 16, and 19 to be precise, have shown me that wine makers have listened to it's customers and there is less extraction, less alcohol, more acidity and better tannin management. So I'm enjoying younger wines. I'm also at an age where I'm not really bothered whether I pay £3 more than the cute article over the water who traipsed off to the Upper Silesian auctions and sated his/her passion for "Billy bargains" to laud over us.

 

[Gareth Germain]

For me the first significant rise was 2005. First growths going from £850 to £3500 (approx), from 04 to 05. They held to those prices 06, 07 and lost their nerve in 08, prices on first tranche down to £1900 (for Latour).

I remember thinking at the time, fair play to them, they must resent a punter doubling their money on the back of their hard work within a year. I could understand that as that's what you could have done with first growths back in 04 and 08.

I have to chuckle at the constant annual barrage of disgruntlement at the EP system. I have to wonder if it's because those people don't have joy of the smugness when their wines arrive that they've got Billy bargains printed on their spreadsheets. These same "cute articles" (Norn iron expression) swoon over their £100+ village wines and £30+ Bourgogne Rouges.

For me the value still lies in Claret. I was of the opinion in 2012 that there wasn't much point buying anymore due to my age. But recent vintages in the last 10 years, 15, 16, and 19 to be precise, have shown me that wine makers have listened to it's customers and there is less extraction, less alcohol, more acidity and better tannin management. So I'm enjoying younger wines. I'm also at an age where I'm not really bothered whether I pay £3 more than the cute article over the water who traipsed off to the Upper Silesian auctions and sated his/her passion for "Billy bargains" to laud over us.

I think you also make us chuckle at your constant disgruntlement with those who are disgruntled.

But seriously I don't think anybody is expecting to make any money on Bordeaux anymore, and that which was made was often accidental (in terms of people who buy wine to drink as opposed to trade). Burgundy was the obvious place to do that if you could get allocations and were into flipping rather than drinking (which again overall I think the forum is not).

The main issue at stake, which you somehow seem to have missed, is that wines bought EP have decreased in value, undermining the whole point of EP (or at least how it has been historically advertised). You cite a few £ per bottle but actually taken over five-ten years, adding in storage and loss of opportunity, not to mention inflation and it can mean overpaying by a considerable sum, more so if you have several or more cases (as people often do). The vintages post 2008 have generally all suffered from this.

I now look at some cases of 2010 I bought and wonder why did I do that? Cos, for instance was £1350 for six, Las Cases was £1450 for six, they are now both about £1000 for six. Accounting for inflation and storage costs the real cost of that initial outlay now is just under and just over £2000 for each so that is a big real-term loss. If you have 09s it makes for even even worse reading.

That is the real worry for me and why I tell people don't buy EP just pick up 2005s, 2010s et al and save money and drink well now.

 

[John Devlin]

TWS offer is out if anyone is interested. I suspect not reading the above posts.

 

[Sean Hardon]

I think you also make us chuckle at your constant disgruntlement with those who are disgruntled.

But seriously I don't think anybody is expecting to make any money on Bordeaux anymore, and that which was made was often accidental (in terms of people who buy wine to drink as opposed to trade). Burgundy was the obvious place to do that if you could get allocations and were into flipping rather than drinking (which again overall I think the forum is not).

The main issue at stake, which you somehow seem to have missed, is that wines bought EP have decreased in value, undermining the whole point of EP (or at least how it has been historically advertised). You cite a few £ per bottle but actually taken over five-ten years, adding in storage and loss of opportunity, not to mention inflation and it can mean overpaying by a considerable sum, more so if you have several or more cases (as people often do). The vintages post 2008 have generally all suffered from this.

I now look at some cases of 2010 I bought and wonder why did I do that? Cos, for instance was £1350 for six, Las Cases was £1450 for six, they are now both about £1000 for six. Accounting for inflation and storage costs the real cost of that initial outlay now is just under and just over £2000 for each so that is a big real-term loss. If you have 09s it makes for even even worse reading.

That is the real worry for me and why I tell people don't buy EP just pick up 2005s, 2010s et al and save money and drink well now.

Well thankfully Bordeaux isn't all about 1st growths and super seconds. I'm more than happy to have bought wines like Batailley, which are sleeping blissfully in my "cellar", that I have never had to pay a penny piece for storage.

 

[Gareth Germain]

Well thankfully Bordeaux isn't all about 1st growths and super seconds. I'm more than happy to have bought wines like Batailley, which are sleeping blissfully in my "cellar", that I have never had to pay a penny piece for storage.

Works at the lower end too. Take Batailley 2019. Released at £400-420 it’s now £330. Accounting for inflation that’s a £200 drop. You could today have bought 19 bottles for the same as 12.

Anyhow I think we can just agree to disagree. You obviously have different priorities.

 

[Jason Michelle]

Batailley 2019 EP was £336/12 looking at my receiot from Farr.

Inflation yup agree. Storage about £12 per annum a case (I moved to L&W).

 

[Sean Hardon]

Works at the lower end too. Take Batailley 2019. Released at £400-420 it’s now £330. Accounting for inflation that’s a £200 drop. You could today have bought 19 bottles for the same as 12.

Anyhow I think we can just agree to disagree. You obviously have different priorities.

Well I paid £290 for my 2010. First merchant price on that yesterday was £550. I'm happy enough with that.

 

[Sean Hardon]

Batailley 2019 EP was £336/12 looking at my receiot from Farr.

Inflation yup agree. Storage about £12 per annum a case (I moved to L&W).

Farr presently selling a 6 pack for £270. So £540/12.

 

[Gareth Germain]

Farr presently selling a 6 pack for £270. So £540/12.

Err yes I was looking at the cheapest UK price Sean not the most expensive That is £336/12.

 

[Gareth Germain]

Well I paid £290 for my 2010. First merchant price on that yesterday was £550. I'm happy enough with that.

It's £496/12 at Laithwaites but anyway... That is still a £60 saving including inflation so I guess it pays to have your own cellar as if you're paying for storage again it would be cheaper to have simply bought it now (or likely even cheaper in five years time the way things are going).

Also @Sean Hardon you did make exactly the same point I am making several pages ago so why the angst? I think we are basically on the same page are we not? i.e. don't buy 23s just backfill.