- Location
- London, UK
I'm often noticed how "low" the scores are in Burgundy relative to Bordeaux. Calibration issue or are the wines of Bordeaux that much better? I'm not trolling, honest!
Bordeaux EP 2023
- Thread starter David Mansfield
- Start date
- Location
- London
Probably a result of statistically averaging the Burgundies….
- Location
- London and Boston
I know I’m not answering your question Ben, but most third to fifth growths get scores that were given to first growths in the eighties and nineties. There has been an improvement in many wines but there has also definitely been grade inflation and the Bordeaux market (i.e. what you can charge for your wine on release) is more driven by scores as well. As David M says the oversupply of critics doesn’t help ss high scores = airtime. If you score moderately you’re out of the game. If only we could turn the clock back and uninvent scoring.
- Location
- UK
The reported 34% reduction in today's price for 2023 Ducru-Beaucaillou makes it a whole POUND a bottle cheaper than the current market for the prodigious 2019 – what greater incentive could the canny investor require?
- Location
- UK
Surely a manifestation of climate change at a regional level, Richard? Soon enough some enterprising MW graduand will garner wine's first Ig Nobel prize for pointing out how Bordeaux's overnight temperatures, stated ABVs, critic scores and release prices all follow the same inexorable upward curve...
- Location
- UK
On 2023 from a merchant email this morning, but is that a good thing or bad?
(Certainly quite enough homemade memes for today, thank you...)
- Location
- Buckingham
I'm 103 points on that......
- Location
- Aldeburgh
This reminds me of
Jilly Goolden somehow. Not a sweeping statement but wine critics have to earn a living and I’m sure there is some nefarious behaviour. As with most professions
- Location
- UK
Although I was referring more to the investment aspect of EP, I do feel that nowadays wine (and restaurant) critics should identify all hospitality or other encouragement they receive from producers, agencies or merchants. An outrageous suggestion – next people will demand that wines are tasted blind and without the threat of a nine-course dinner (washed down with every vintage back to 1827) at the château...
But if anyone did ever offer Jilly Goolden an inducement financial or otherwise for her ebullient prose, then I say jolly good for her.
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- Location
- Holmfirth
I've just realised that Tamlyn Currin is a po-faced version of Gilly Goulden. Gilly was great fun.
- Location
- London
I suppose with the investment bubble having been burst by the massive increase in price between 2008 and 2009… I did say at the time we’d never see prices as low as 2008 ever again at the time, it really is a question of how much are you willing to pay to get the wine AND guarantee the provenance. As someone who grew up watching my parents look through thousands of antiques to sniff out the few “genuine” pieces, I’ve always leaned towards provenance over the lowest price. So the question now is really… are you willing to pay the price for that particular wine? If the answer is yes, then who is to tell you not to pay £1,300 for three bottles of Ausone IB?
In terms of score inflation… whilst there are lots more critics around there are must also be a semblance of understanding that different vintages can produce sublime wines and not following the Parkerisation that undoubtedly happened for a period. Ultimately though I don’t really look at any scores other than our own Neal for Bordeaux. It really does come down to (and this goes for any region) do I want to guarantee the provenance and is the price right for me? Everything else is just noise and chatter, and we won’t really know how these wines perform until they are really ready.
In terms of score inflation… whilst there are lots more critics around there are must also be a semblance of understanding that different vintages can produce sublime wines and not following the Parkerisation that undoubtedly happened for a period. Ultimately though I don’t really look at any scores other than our own Neal for Bordeaux. It really does come down to (and this goes for any region) do I want to guarantee the provenance and is the price right for me? Everything else is just noise and chatter, and we won’t really know how these wines perform until they are really ready.
- Location
- Yorkshire
Probably not in the same league as EP veterans, but I keep buying Cissac which is £99/12 EP. 2019 Cissac is £200IB
Seems a decent buy. Just wondering what other views there are about lesser properties and vfm?
Seems a decent buy. Just wondering what other views there are about lesser properties and vfm?
- Location
- Auckland, New Zealand
In terms of VFM, I would look at Phelan Segur (quality has increased significantly in the last 8 years or so IMO), La Lagune (of course) and Lagegorce which is an inexpensive Margaux that seems to be doing well.
Ch Tour St Bonnet is a very affordable Cru Bourgeois Medoc that I have always liked (quite traditional in style) but can be hard to find. Hope that helps.
In terms of things that are not expensive, and good value relative to historic prices, £1.95 can you buy Nicholas Faith’s authoritative account (a real book!) of what happened in Bordeaux in the 1970’s which puts modern grumbles into perspective.
Also note the drop of 1st growths between 2000 and 2002 (2/3rd’s fall) and the absurdity of 2009 EP (e.g., Cheval Blanc came out at 3 times the prevalent rate for the 1985 … this was a clear signal to buy 1985 and not buy any 2009 . It seems obvious in retrospect, but was a pretty clear signal in real time too.
Also note the drop of 1st growths between 2000 and 2002 (2/3rd’s fall) and the absurdity of 2009 EP (e.g., Cheval Blanc came out at 3 times the prevalent rate for the 1985 … this was a clear signal to buy 1985 and not buy any 2009 . It seems obvious in retrospect, but was a pretty clear signal in real time too.
- Location
- Kuala Lumpur
The Grand Village Rouge and Blanc from the Guinaudeau (Lafleur) stable are exceptional value at around £100/6
- Location
- Havant, Hampshire
Hi Jasper,
At around about that time, you offered as an alternative, 1996 Clos de la Dioterie from Charles Joguet and I bought that instead. Good decision wine wise, but less good for stock appreciation, but I definitely made the right call!
- Location
- Lancashire, UK
I haven't read that book - what's the title? Scrub that I found it!
- Location
- UK
2023 Cos d'Estournel at £720 – a reported 38% reduction makes it just 20% more expensive than the higher-scoring 2019...
- Location
- London and Boston
The data don't lie. However, there has at least been a 5% increase in common sense on pricing. Not enough of an increase to meet the market of course.
- Location
- London
To be fair, makes the 2019 look like a bargain
- Location
- Scotland
However, you can enjoy driving the Elan (or Porsche) down twisty country roads on glorious sunny days for a few years then sell it (possibly even at a profit). Once you've enjoyed the £500 bottle of wine it has gone.
- Location
- Scotland
My last ever Bordeaux purchase EP was the 2002 vintage. Rising prices and preferring to spend my cash Burgundy, which was still affordable then, even some GCs from non-stellar producers, put the brakes on Bordeaux purchases. Getting older, as well as escalating prices reduced my enthusiasm. However, I have relented today and gone for a 6 pack of Chateau de Fieuzal as I love the wines of Pessac-Leognan. it is getting scores in the low to mid 90's and at £120/6 IB is cheaper than all the previous vintages I could see on council wine-searcher. Also, with a drinking window starting in 2025, it means I can enjoy it soon after it arrives in the UK and a few years before my 70th birthday. 
- Location
- London
Not sure I quite understand what prompted this but it doesn’t seem like a very kind thing to say.
- Location
- East Cambs
Agreed. Plus since HRH allowed her to write and not just do data entry she has blossomed onto one of the two best writers on the site, Julia Harding being the other one. TC's profiles and tasting notes are fun and her book reviews peerless in the wine world. And Goolden was undervalued in her double act with Oz Clarke. He was cast as the expert and she as the fluff (very much of the time) but her knowledge and tasting abilities are excellent with great depth.
- Location
- Holmfirth
Fair enough, Colin and Charles. Just like wine preferences (I’m a claret man, not a burgundy man - which probably tells you something), it’s a matter of personal taste when it comes to literary style. TC has a wonderful way with words but, when applied to wine, I find her style pretentious (just as I did the lauded Andrew Jefford). As far as I’m concerned, there’s a reason why she’s been cited in Pseuds’ Corner. I’ll say no more on the subject as we’ll clearly not agree and, as I said, it comes down to personal taste.
My remarks were not intended as any kind of criticism of Gilly Goolden, whose contributions to the food programme I greatly enjoyed. Her “wheelbarrow-loads of ugli fruit” were right in my wheelhouse (to use a trendy saying I don’t quite comprehend but I think I get the gist).
No-one comes close to Hugh Johnson as a prose stylist.
My remarks were not intended as any kind of criticism of Gilly Goolden, whose contributions to the food programme I greatly enjoyed. Her “wheelbarrow-loads of ugli fruit” were right in my wheelhouse (to use a trendy saying I don’t quite comprehend but I think I get the gist).
No-one comes close to Hugh Johnson as a prose stylist.
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