Echézeaux versus Grands Echézeaux?

Alex Rychlewski

Alex Rychlewski

Location
Bordeaux
Hi,

I enjoyed a 2008 Les Echézeaux from Domaine François Lamarche at lunch, and this got me to wondering about the differences between Echézeaux and Grands Echézeaux.

The former is three times as large as the latter and I’ve been led to understand that, overall, the wines are not usually as good.

Of course, a really good Echézeaux is going to be better than an average Grands Echézeaux. But what I’m really wondering is to what extent they are similar and if there is anyone’s Echézeaux that reaches the heights.

For information, the wine referred to above was more on a premier cru rather than grand cru level.

Thanks in advance for your input,

Best regards,
Alex R.

PS: Spelling: sometimes you see the spelling of Echézeaux with one accent, sometimes with two accents (if you put one of the first “e”, as one ought to even if it is a capital letter), and sometimes with zero accents. I don’t know which is the preferred spelling.
 
Richard,

Yes, you have made an excellent point, but two questions:

Is the DRC Echezeaux in a class of its own, i.e. atypical of the climat?

How does DRC Echézeaux compare pricewise and tastewise to DRC Grands Echézeaux?

I have actually compared them once, at the domaine, ten years ago, but the memory is a little hazy. It seems to me that there was a step up, but not a big one.

Alex
 
Alex - I can't answer your question with much data. I've had the DRC Echézeaux maybe three times and it has always been outstanding grand cru burgundy and the Grands Echézeaux just the once, and not side-by-side with the straight Echézeaux. My memory says that the GE was a better wine by a small margin. I doubt many on the forum perhaps with the exception of Paul Day have drunk enough DRC to be in any way definitive.
 
The only DRC I've had the pleasure of drinking was their 2012 Echezeaux and it was bloody good - definitely one of the best wines I have ever drunk, though as I think I noted at the time, similar pleasure was to be found from a wine from slightly further South without the same price-tag. Not that this helps.
 
About 10 years ago, a WIMP brought a DRC Grands Echezeaux 1991 at the Ledbury and, at the time, this was the best Burgundy I had ever had by some distance. Then, in 2017, I had a wonderful Echezeaux DRC 1988 (and many other grand wines) at Howard Ripley and this wine was also fabulous. In between, a glass of La Tache 2008 at Trompette when a young man shared it to mitigate his unhappiness at getting divorced and this was less mature but was clearly amazingly great.

That's all for DRC. So, not enough to have a say on a Gd ECh. Echez. debate.

Outside DRC, I have had great Grivot Echezeaux and most of his plot is in aux Cruots which is one of the best plot (Jayer also from there). But no other Gd Echezeaux.
 
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Almost everybody (all but Baron Thenard and H de Villamont, I think) who has Grands Echezeaux also has Echezeaux as per chart, which seems to have lost its tabular form, sorry. However first figure is GE holding, second is E.

Domaine de la Romanée Conti 3.53 4.67
Domaine Mongeard-Mugneret 1.44 2.06
Domaine Engel / Domaine d’Eugénie 0.50 0.55
Joseph Drouhin 0.48 0.41
Gros Frère & Soeur 0.37 2.11
Georges Noellat 0.38 0.13
Domaine Lamarche 0.30 1.32
Clos Frantin 0.25 1.00
Jean-Marc Millot 0.20 0.97
Coquard-Loison-Fleurot 0.18 1.40
Desaunay-Bissey 0.34 0.15

In most cases Grands Echezeaux is noticeably the better wine. It was by a long chalk with Philippe Engel. Normally so with DRC (except 1986), much closer at Lamarche. I also have a wonderful memory of the 1983 Echezeaux from Jean Mongeard when M-MUGNERET was at its peak. I bought a case from Heyman Brothers at I think £140 + VAT per dozen.
 
Richard Zambuni said:
Many moons ago a Nicolas Potel Echezeaux 1999 was, to use Tom B's adjective, ravishing.
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Two contrasting notes on the 2001 Potel Echezeaux --
  • 2001 Nicolas Potel Echezeaux - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Echezeaux Grand Cru (01/10/2019)
    Nothing like as good as our last bottle, a year ago, which I scored 93. Assertive tannins make this bottle unbalanced. And not as sweet or as long as last time. But I hope this may just be an awkward phase, and look forward to trying again in another year or so. Still very impressive QPR, at £30 a bottle en primeur. (90 pts.)
  • 2001 Nicolas Potel Echezeaux - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Echezeaux Grand Cru (30/08/2018)
    First of a case. Much better than expected, a delicious, pungent, penetrating wine, lovely on its own after food. Better with some air, may decant next time. Wonderful QPR at £30/bottle en primeur. (93 pts.)
Posted from CellarTracker

These were the first two from a case, and I have another in the slips ready to go. I don't know what others think, but for me, 2001 is turning out to be a very fine vintage, often (but not always) the superior of the same wine in 2002.
 
My (possibly erroneous) general understanding is that the DRC gap has narrowed in recent times, say in the '00's onwards and the gap between Echezeaux and GE is much narrower than historically would have been typical. But others here are far more qualified to talk about this than me. What I can say is that I cannot recall any older DRC Ech anywhere near the DRC GE 1966. And I remember a Linden double vertical of G&H Jayer Echezeaux vs DRC Echezeaux though, where I distinctly preferred the G&H until the younger vintages, and that was I think because of the relatively improving DRC.
 
Mark Crann said:
2001 is turning out to be a very fine vintage, often (but not always) the superior of the same wine in 2002.
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01 has given me much more pleasure so far but I don't think it has a huge amount more petrol in the tank in most cases.
Gerard Mugneret makes wonderful Echezeaux even though it's not from the best part of the vineyard. Sadly it is no longer a bargain.
 
I don't think it's been mentioned here, Alex, but older producers suggest that 'Grand' is not used as one-upmanship versus Echézeaux (I'm too lazy to use 2 accents like DRC Échézeaux), rather that it describes much longer rows than seen in the more 'parcellated' E - so they say...

Of-course the structural character of GE is different to E and I see this as probably due to it's proximity to Clos de Vougeot - the wall of the Clos often seeming an arbitrary separation between the two - it's probably not unreasonable then that DRC hold that their GE is perhaps the longest-lived of all their wines. That said their E is not a bad keeper either - I remember Jasper kindly giving me a sip of the DRC '59 E that he'd enjoyed at lunch in BB&R with Burghound (in roughly 2008) which was robust and young - the BB&R own-bottled '57 Bonnes-Mares the more drinkable/open of the two that day(!)

In young GE, when not drowned out by oak, I very often find an almond aroma that I don't find in the E, and E is to me more classically 'Vosne-like' than GE - again, perhaps, due to GEs proximity to the Clos. It's easy to consider E a second-rank grand cru in the context of Vosne-Romanée (I know, it's in Flagey...) but a single tour of a dozen or more young Echézeaux often has me in raptures. Considering the size of the vineyard, E shows much more consistent in quality (if not style) than Clos de Vougeot or Corton.

Styles can confound everything - of course! Lots of whole cluster - or not. Tons of new oak - or not. Etcetera... I do think that the DRC E is consistently in the top half-dozen E every year, but that simply means that I like their stylistic choices - though it can be a close-run thing with other domaines...

For those lucky enough to still have some, I think Nicky Potel got extra-special juice from 'somewhere' in 1997 - his Echézeaux is one of the wines of the vintage - and it's now starting to blossom fabulously - it's currently much more interesting than his 1999...
 
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Paul Day said:
My (possibly erroneous) general understanding is that the DRC gap has narrowed in recent times, say in the '00's onwards and the gap between Echezeaux and GE is much narrower than historically would have been typical. But others here are far more qualified to talk about this than me. What I can say is that I cannot recall any older DRC Ech anywhere near the DRC GE 1966. And I remember a Linden double vertical of G&H Jayer Echezeaux vs DRC Echezeaux though, where I distinctly preferred the G&H until the younger vintages, and that was I think because of the relatively improving DRC.
Click to expand...

I was lucky enough to share the purchase of an EP case of the 1993 Jayer Echézeaux, purchased for around £360 (12 bottle case). I knew even less about wine, at that time, than I do now, so purely luck but what luck! Easily the greatest wine that I have ever had and long since consumed. I see that Wine Searcher shows one bottle retailing at £5700 currently, so I clearly obtained a bargain.
 
Thanks all for the learned answers.

I see that I have a bottle of 2011 Echézeaux from Emmanuel Rouget in the cellar. I believe he is the successor to Jayer.
Presumably, it is the same Jayer vineyard.

I can't find notes for that vintage on Cellartracker.
I suppose I'll age it for a few more years.

All the best,
Alex R.
 
Richard Ward said:
If I had 1 single bottle of, so only 1 shot at, 2011 Rouget Echezeaux there's no way I'd even consider opening it any time soon.
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I used to feel like that but I rarely see the point of holding onto singles these days. It may of course be corked, faulty or something else, but one doesn't anyway have a particularly good chance of opening it on the right day.
 
Why is DRC Echezeaux so good? Do they just have better terroir than everybody else, or is their savoir-faire head and shoulders above everyone else's, or dare I say does the label excitement act as a placebo booster? My same comments would apply to other DRCs outside of the hallowed Romanee Conti, La Tache and La Montrachet vineyards. Sadly no experience, and for those who do have experience, has anyone had such a celebrated wine served blind?
 
Placebos work, Graham, as is now well known. There was by all accounts a time in the 70s and 80s when the DRC was not by any means beyond reproach but in my limited experience they now make wines fabulously worthy of the label and I have tasted several bottles without sight of that label, though I have never thought that blind tasting proves very much. I have never drunk Romanée-Conti but La Tache really is as wonderful as legend suggests, and if that magic is indeed enhanced by its reputation I see that as a cause for celebration rather than anything else.
 
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