Edinburgh Offline Burgundy & Grouse

M

Mike Mitchell

Location
East Lothian
Great evening. Wines and menu below. Thanks to Chris for pulling this one together. The grouse was lovely for me, not too well hung but enough to give a rich depth of flavour. Kudos to Richard at Hewats.

No proper notes from me I'm afraid. The Jobard Mersault was my favourite white, beautifully in its stride. The LeFlaive P-M was very good indeed but a bit young still. The two C-C were heading down the oxidation path. The 96 Olivier LeFlaive especially. On reflection, Paul was completely right. It was more gone than the 83. His point about the greater vinosity of the 83 eventually sunk in!

For me the Dujac CSD 2001 was easily WOTN. Fabulous bouquet rushed from my glass and then it was drinking very well indeed. The two 03 were both in good shape but a bit foursquare right now. Hopefully they will come round with more age to something more enjoyable. Many liked the 99 Charmes best and it was certainly good.

A champagne was squeezed in at one point. Thanks Liz for this and the P-M and welcome to this group.

And a very fine time seemed to be had by all!

Menu &Wines

2016 Tio Pepe en Rama


Seared Fillet of Seabass with Sun Blushed Tomato Hollandaise
2009 Puligny Montrachet 1er Cru Clavoillon , Domaine Leflaive
1998 F Jobard Meursault En le Barre
1996 Leflaive Corton Charlemagne
1983 Corton Charlemagne, Antonin Rodet

Roasted Grouse with Blackcurrant Jelly Jus & Brambles, Thyme Polenta, Carrot Puree & Savoy Cabbage with Pancetta
2009 Volnay 1er Cru Taillepieds, Maison Champy
2003 Nuits-St-Georges 1er cru "Les Pruliers", Domaine Jean Grivot
2003 Chambolle-Musigny 1er Cru Aux Beaux Bruns, Denis Mortet
1999 Charmes-Chambertin GC, Jean Raphet
2001 Dujac Clos St Denis

Selection of Clarks Speciality Cheeses with Oatcakes

Autumn Fruit Crumble with Vanilla Crème Anglaise
2006 Heritage, Viré-Clessé , Domaine Michel

1997 Alain Brumont Pacherenc du Vic-Bilh Vendemiaire Novembre
 
The long retired, now living in Gevrey, but regularly checking back to his former Morey home and lovingly tended vegetable garden, Monsieur Raphet Senior with seemingly permanently attached flat cap is just absolutely one of my favourite people in the world. Looking up at an empty bottle of his 2000 Clos de Vougeot gifted to me by him (full then !) on a shelf in my study as I type reminds me just what a lovely man he is - doesn't speak a word of English but we can discuss all sorts at ridiculously early hours of the morning or whenever when he has insisted on my sharing a degustation with him during my annual (Arlaud) vendange. Looking forward to seeing him again soon in Morey for the 2016 harvest - will be taking a bottle of Scotch or Irish whiskey in readiness for a swap for what am sure will be his generously offered latest bottle from his personal cellar for this 'Anglais' - his name for me !

A true French vigneron man of the soil. Would love to have tasted the Charmes 1999.

Domaine (Rene ?) Michel is another family I've pleasurably visited several times - lovely wines and super people.

Have had many delicious 1998 white burgundies - just last weekend an Arnaud Ente Meursault 1er 'Gouttes D'Or which was on the slide but caught just in time, even if horribly coloured. .
 
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Mark - delightful story of personal experience with M Raphet, thank you. I remarked on the night that the Charmes was my favourite red of a very distinguished bunch - I also concur with Mike about the delicious fragrant hit from the Dujac!
As a newbie to the group yet to hold any significantly aged wines from the region, I was relieved that my 09 P-M stood up to comparison, poss due to its outstanding vintage year, and trumped all younger P-Ms I've tried (which seem by nature to be sometimes frustratingly austere, whereas this had a nectarish purity).
The Pacherenc du Vic-Bilh was a pleasure and the Jobard Meursault was indeed lovely still. Overall a privilege to be able to taste such a strong line-up of seriously aged wines.
I too have a bottle of 'Goutte d'Or' 1er Cru Meursault under the stairs - but it's 2011 (VG on my vintage card) App M PC C (!), but bottled & distributed in Meursault by Buisson Charles. Could the name indicate a connection to Arnaud Ente (perhaps distributed in the same way as I heard the other day that a merchant house Sauternes came in fact from Yquem?). Santé if you can suggest how long I should keep it anyway!
Liz
 
Just following up on your Meursault 1er Gouttes D'Or comments Elizabeth (btw I've corrected my initial spelling to add the appropriate 's') I see no connection between the Arnaud Ente and Buisson-Charles domaines in this respect.

Looking at Clive Coates comments on the cru against the more 'modern' one's of Jasper's (Morris) there's quite a disparity in listed owners.

CC references Bouchard Pere, Alain Coche (Coche-Bizouard ?), Arnaud Ente, J-M Gaunoux, Francois Mikulski & Bernard Millot.

Yet Jasper has Buisson-Battault, Buisson-Charles, Coche Bizouard, Arnaud Ente & Domaine des Comtes Lafon.

All v good names for me but I'm just assuming this is nothing more than atypical fragmented Burgundian ownership coupled with the highly esteemed (both for me) authors above just referencing those domaines they are most familiar with apropos this premier cru. I'm afraid I don't have a great opinion on 2011, but whites way better than many reds. Its a vintage I largely & deliberately sidestepped. I have some of the Lafon GdO in various vintages but think its all in storage - if I can find one here at home might broach tonight. The wines of Buisson-Charles wines I don't know but have been keen to try for a while as I've seen many strong references to them in recent years and know my good friend Mr Nanson rates them highly - the domaine featuring in his lovely book (which is good enough for me !). In terms of keeping your bottle, well, personally I wouldn't - not longer than say 2/3 years more anyway for maximum enjoyment ? Difficult to say with any white burgs these days as we all know but given the risks of holding and the nature of the vintage I certainly wouldn't see any bottle as a long, or even medium, term keeper.

I did briefly look at you's guys wonderful sounding offline when it was first published with a view to possible attendance (the same applying to Filippo's Dujac evening) but unfortunately had a prior clashing engagement to scupper any prospect of either for me.

Cheers MG
 
Cheers Mark,
Mine is indeed 1 singular 'Goutte d'Or' & must be how Dom BC are employing the same name as AE's plural Gouttes- whoever may have used the idea first!
Thanks - I'd rather know now that the 2011 I bought may not be a long-term keeper in the area and hopefully enjoy it in the next year or so.
I was also kindly sent a pair of white burgundies via a gift co. on achieving a good result in a recent exam and would love your comments as a regular visitor to the area - suspect they cd be pretty unknown end parcels but you may have spotted the names - a 2006 Meursault Jean Charles de Salinieres and a 1996 Bourgogne from Brigand Gilbert et Regine (Massigny). Are they worth opening? Take it now best to do so without delay?!
 
A thoroughly excellent night with some great wines. My white of the night was the 1983 Corton-Charlemagne. I'm glad Mike has finally seen the light and agreed with me (and Toby, I must add, as his judgement carries more weight then mine) about the 1996 Leflaive Corton-Charlemagne ;). The difference was obvious even from the colour and on the nose the 1983 showed signs of natural oxidisation, that wasn't strong, but still had great structure and balancing acidity. The 1996, basically speaking, was shot - loads of caramel on the nose and really struggling to find anything beyond that. Not the first duff Leflaive I've had and the recent thread with a merchants rep confirmed how little confidence they still have in the ageability of their wines 20 years on!! I also detected an initial whiff of pox from the Leflaive Puligny-Montrachet PC Clavaillon 2009 so left the remainder until after the reds and it had blown off to reveal a lovely, young (though its a shame I didn't feel I'd take the risk and give any more bottles much longer), rich white Burg. I almost felt a sense of relief drinking the Meursault 1998 that it was in such good condition, if a little soft, for my taste in wines from that great village.
I'm afraid I have stopped buying white Burgundy at that sort of level, so finding one that is nearly 20 years old (and post 1996) in that nick was tremendous.

Of the reds, it was a toss up between between the Raphet Charmes-Chambertin 1999 and the Dujac Clos Saint Denis 2001. I thought the CSD had more concentration of fruit and more powerful and could improve over the next few years, while I felt the Charmes-Chambertin was at its peak now and was lovely and elegant with a silkier feeling to it. The 2003's were pretty typical of the vintage and its a race against time to see what lasts the longest - the fruit or the tannins. They were pretty disjointed and rustic still at the moment, but always interesting to taste. I liked Keith's Volnay 2009 but felt it was just a good few years too young, but it was a reminder for me to hold onto my 2009's a bit longer. All the reds were great with the grouse, which was definitely less hung than the grouse I had last weekend, which was probably a good thing as it was never going to overpower the Pinot Noirs.

The two sweet wines were lovely and the botryitised Chardonnay of the Michel's Heritage 2006 showed some lovely concentration and balance. Mike's Pacherenc was different and I think I preferred that, especially with the cheese.
 
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Mark Gough said:
The long retired, now living in Gevrey, but regularly checking back to his former Morey home and lovingly tended vegetable garden, Monsieur Raphet Senior with seemingly permanently attached flat cap is just absolutely one of my favourite people in the world. Looking up at an empty bottle of his 2000 Clos de Vougeot gifted to me by him (full then !) on a shelf in my study as I type reminds me just what a lovely man he is - doesn't speak a word of English but we can discuss all sorts at ridiculously early hours of the morning or whenever when he has insisted on my sharing a degustation with him during my annual (Arlaud) vendange. Looking forward to seeing him again soon in Morey for the 2016 harvest - will be taking a bottle of Scotch or Irish whiskey in readiness for a swap for what am sure will be his generously offered latest bottle from his personal cellar for this 'Anglais' - his name for me !

A true French vigneron man of the soil. Would love to have tasted the Charmes 1999.

Domaine (Rene ?) Michel is another family I've pleasurably visited several times - lovely wines and super people.

Have had many delicious 1998 white burgundies - just last weekend an Arnaud Ente Meursault 1er 'Gouttes D'Or which was on the slide but caught just in time, even if horribly coloured. .
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Hi Mark - I have also had the pleasure of several visits to Jean Raphet (it was my Charmes-Chambertin 1999 at the offline) both before and after he retired. I haven't seen him for several years now (mainly because most recent holidays were to Alsace) and also haven't tried any of his son (Gerard)'s wines. My stand out memory was of his generosity and eagerness to open many of his great wines. However on one visit he treated me to an eight-vintage vertical of his Charmes-Chambertin, the oldest being his 1983 (and he even allowed me to buy a bottle of it at a very reasonable price). He was always sensible with his prices and a quick look at Gerard's prices mean I probably won't be going to see him either.

Domaine Michel is indeed René and, as we spent a week in Beaujolais this summer, I managed to go and visit the domaine again after an absence of a few years (when I bought the Heritage we had at the offline). I was chatting to Franck and we worked out that the first time I visited them was in 1991, and again I have tasted many a vintage there (certainly every vintage from 1983 - 2005) but have also bought some later ones here in Edinburgh from Raeburn Fine Wines (having recommended the Domaine to Zubhair back in 1997). I'm also proud to say that having opened hundreds of their bottles (and magnums) over 4 decades of vintages, I have only ever had two that were corked and never had a pox'd wine at all.
He's one of the very few white wine producers (if not the only one) in the whole of Burgundy that I would confidently buy older wines from or keep vintages for 10 - 15 years (and their wine's do age brilliantly as a recent Macon-Clessé 1997 will testify).

Cheers
Paul
 
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Now now Paul.

Not retreating quite that far. I do agree that the 96 was much more advanced/oxidised than it should be, even compared to the 83. But to me it wasn't that rank, drain like pox flavour. Just well down the sherried/oxidised road. But still some sort of wine and still drinkable.

I suspect we are into TCA like territory. Variable degrees of sensitivity to different tastes.

Just like Dry River Pinot perhaps?? :D
 
Interesting what you say about sensitivity. I feel I'm very sensitive to TCA and perhaps its the same with pox. However, I really enjoyed both the 1983 C-C and Keith's sherry, both of which were clearly oxidised but, to me, in a completely natural, and intended and controlled (at least with the sherry) way. I'll stick to my guns and say, for me, the 1996 was just wrong (and Leflaive should be ashamed of themselves, and address the problem, instead of churning out revised drinking dates to cover their backsides :mad:).
 
Are we in danger of confusing Olivier Lefliaive with Domaine Leflaive here? AIUI the dodgy CC was an Olivier wine, whereas all the chat on here about revised drinking dates has related to Domaine Leflaive.
 
We are indeed.There is no Domaine Leflaive CC.
I have had uniformly bad experiences with Olivier but I gather things have changed in a big way recently.
 
Paul Anderson said:
its a race against time to see what lasts the longest - the fruit or the tannins
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In my experience it doesn't work like that with Burgundy. Fruit disappears completely and eventually transmogrified fruit returns, quite independently of tannins softening or not. 2003 is of course not a normal vintage. What we really need is for acidity to appear from nowhere, which is perfectly possible.
 
Simple one - yes, the C-C was Olivier not Domaine. We had three bottles of this wine over the past couple of years. One very good, one so-so, one "quite" far gone.

Paul - we are on the same path, just at different distances down it. Into the ultimate subjectivity of wine tasting and questions of varying responses or sensitivities to different flavour components. There is no right or wrong, just different perceptions. Which doesn't prevent us disagreeing about such things of course!

Thom - I certainly don't see 2003 reds as a lost cause. Just not quite sure which wines are going to make it somewhere more hedonistic-ally enjoyable (or when!).
 
Colin Bradley said:
Are we in danger of confusing Olivier Lefliaive with Domaine Leflaive here? AIUI the dodgy CC was an Olivier wine, whereas all the chat on here about revised drinking dates has related to Domaine Leflaive.
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My apologies, I had confused the two. Maybe one of them will actually come out and explain what's gone wrong?
 
Mike Mitchell said:
Paul - we are on the same path, just at different distances down it. Into the ultimate subjectivity of wine tasting and questions of varying responses or sensitivities to different flavour components. There is no right or wrong, just different perceptions. Which doesn't prevent us disagreeing about such things of course!
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Absolutely Mike, and I'm not even sure I'd call it 'disagreeing' but, as you say, having different perceptions. Plus the fact I'm seriously annoyed with producers of white Burgundy who are now delivering a quite different product.

Its actually akin to going to see The Fall - you turn up at the gig not knowing if the band will turn up. When they do turn up you're not sure if they'll appear on stage. When they do appear on stage you wonder when Mr Smith will get fed up and leave. If he and the band stay for the whole gig and deliver a great setlist you go home very, very happy. Fortunately The Fall are really the only band (I go to see) who are like this (and yet I still keep going to see them). Imagine what it would be like if nearly all the bands were like that?
 
That's why I was asking about the vintage from which the changes were implemented. If it was, say 5/6 years ago then there may already be an indication if the improvements were working. Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places, or don't have the right connections but I would have thought we may have heard more widely about the changes?
 
Mike Mitchell said:
The grouse was lovely for me, not too well hung but enough to give a rich depth of flavour.
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Is it possible to purchase well hung grouse nowadays? There was a time when a bird was not considered ready until the body parted itself from it's head by dint of gravity; it's noggin left sitting on it's v-shaped "hook" in the hanging room. Modern tastes no longer run to such high birds I tend to feel.
 
Sorry to be so late in responding - Mike thanks for posting notes and making us do it.

The two cc's created interesting discussion when considered together. I really enjoyed the chance to try side by side a wine which could be considered pox'd and one which could be considered old. Subtle differences so good to have practical reference points for the group to discuss.

I was the one who brought the Rodet 83 CC having taken a chance on a BfW auction and on reflection would do it again. 80's white burg seem a more reliable punt than 90's and can be priced accordingly.

The 09 was good as a young white burg, similar in experience to Thom's note on the 07 Marc Morey on the forum.

The reds were lovely too, I voted for the Charmes-Chambertin on the night but the Dujac was the wine clearest in my mind the next day. Couldn't argue the Dujac was the greater wine in absolute terms, maybe I just like being contrarian sometimes.

As we said at the end, we don't have enough burgundy dinners.
 
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