NWR General Football Thread

Jonathan Beagle

Jonathan Beagle

Location
London
Good result, good going forward, especially the full-backs... a touch shaky at the back and Scotland didn't take their chances. We did, but Rooney was anonymous. The result will cover the cracks for the time being... lets see whether Spain experiment on Tuesday or go for the proverbial jugular.
 
Ian Hampsted

Ian Hampsted

Location
London
So Harry Kane scored a hat trick yesterday to achieve various records.

If you watched Match of the Day last night all of his goals were gifts from inept defending by Southampton, normally a very competent well organised mid table outfit. School boy defending. He was basically unmarked or poorly marked for all three goals. This is not schoolboy football in North London. This is the premier league. Harry Kane has very little pace. He is not Lionel Messi, nor Ronaldo, nor Neymar. I think I could have done a better job marking him than the Soton defence. This is very smelly. Alan Shearer didn’t show up to Match of the Day yesterday, I doubt because of sour grapes, more likely to allow others to go through with the pretence that this is legit. I would not be surprised if a match fixing scam is not unveiled in the future.
 
Ian Hampsted

Ian Hampsted

Location
London
The point being John is that there was probably a lot of money riding in him getting the record. A good striker sure but the marking was so inept as to be suspicious. If you were the Southampton manager you would have prioritised marking Kane closely. Conspicuously he was given a free rein. All his goals were gifts. Against a team like, say, Juventus, he would not have got on the score sheet.
 
Alex Jagger

Alex Jagger

Location
Bangkok
Hmmm Ian.

Another opinion is he is quite good.

TV distorts how football looks quite a lot and the top 6 teams make others look inept at times.

Anyone playing pro sports - not just footie - is a damn fine athlete with a childhood of hard work, commitment and sacrifice behind them.


Shearer made a classy acknowledgement of the acheivement too btw. :)
 
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David Pugh

Location
London
Ian Amstad said:
The point being John is that there was probably a lot of money riding in him getting the record. A good striker sure but the marking was so inept as to be suspicious. If you were the Southampton manager you would have prioritised marking Kane closely. Conspicuously he was given a free rein. All his goals were gifts. Against a team like, say, Juventus, he would not have got on the score sheet.
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Even if you're right and there was a betting scam involved, Kane only needed one goal to break the record. What's the excuse for his second and third goals? The third clearly wasn't poor marking and it wasn't at all a gift, it was a perfectly placed and weighted through ball from Alli that only Kane could get to. And whilst we're talking about Alli, what's the excuse for Saints defenders standing off him and allowing him to pass the ball into the net? Or what about Hoedt messing up the offside trap to allow Son to score? Was there a betting scam involved with the other two Spurs goals as well?

Perhaps a simpler explanation is that players like Kane are very, very clever at exploiting the weaknesses of opponents. Kane may not be the world's fastest player (although saying he has "very little pace" is doing him a bit of a disservice) but he is very good at positioning himself to take advantage of mistakes. For example, finding holes in Saints' zonal defence. Leicester managed to put 4 past them a couple of weeks ago, so they are clearly not always the very competent, well-organised outfit you credit them as.
 
Russ Sainty

Russ Sainty

Location
Colchester
Are we falling into the knocking our own trap of the English? Surely Kane is an English player to celebrate.

More importantly in football matters will anyone beat Man City this new year?

And having spent Boxing Day watching Brightlingsea Regent loss to Needham Market. Are they even playing the same game anymore? Entertaining gutsy stuff, but tactic less. My nephew plays is my excuse
 
George Marshall

George Marshall

Location
Herts
Haven’t seen the game but stumbled across this clip earlier, looks like they were comprehensively outplayed and probably became disenchanted. Can’t believe in any match fixing here sorry. Not that it doesn’t happen but isn’t fun being on the receiving end of a thumping.
 
M

Mark N Wright

Location
Southport
On a different topic who would have thought my team would pay £75 million for a defender? In today’s market how much would the likes of Alan Hansen Steve Bruce etc be worth - and before you say it if they were in their prime not current age:)?
 
Mark Pearce

Mark Pearce

Location
Newcastle upon Tyne
Ian Amstad said:
So Harry Kane scored a hat trick yesterday to achieve various records.

If you watched Match of the Day last night all of his goals were gifts from inept defending by Southampton, normally a very competent well organised mid table outfit. School boy defending. He was basically unmarked or poorly marked for all three goals. This is not schoolboy football in North London. This is the premier league. Harry Kane has very little pace. He is not Lionel Messi, nor Ronaldo, nor Neymar. I think I could have done a better job marking him than the Soton defence. This is very smelly. Alan Shearer didn’t show up to Match of the Day yesterday, I doubt because of sour grapes, more likely to allow others to go through with the pretence that this is legit. I would not be surprised if a match fixing scam is not unveiled in the future.
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One of the stupidest posts I have ever read here. If you had been watching football recently, you'd know that Southampton aren't good defensively. That said, the second and third goals were very good finishes (the third particularly). Six of Kane's goals this year were scored in the Champions League. We're they fixed, too? The fact is, he is a genuinely world class footballer. He's not just a great finisher (and he really is, only Messi has the same economy of finishing, Kane simply does what is needed to score the goal and frequently passes it into the net where a blasted shot might be easier to save) but also a very good passer and his hold up play is as good as anyone in the Premier League. He's not vane and doesn't play for one of City/United/Chelsea, so it's easy and fashionable to belittle him. It's also wrong. We should celebrate that one of the world's best players is English and, even more so, that he seems entirely happy to stay at a club where he was developed, despite the fact that he could undoubtedly treble (or more) his wages were he to move.

The (apparently serious) allegation of corruption here is both offensive and libellous, by the way.
 
Mark Pearce

Mark Pearce

Location
Newcastle upon Tyne
Ian Amstad said:
The point being John is that there was probably a lot of money riding in him getting the record. A good striker sure but the marking was so inept as to be suspicious. If you were the Southampton manager you would have prioritised marking Kane closely. Conspicuously he was given a free rein. All his goals were gifts. Against a team like, say, Juventus, he would not have got on the score sheet.
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And that is why Juventus are a point off the top of Serie A and Southampton are 14th in a weak Premiership. A silly comparison.
 
Gareth Germain

Gareth Germain

Location
London
Not sure Harry Kane is world class. I think it should take longer than 3-4 seasons to bear that moniker. I am saddened when so many players are classed as world class after such a short period. It's a sad sign of the times and not helpful language. Very good. One of the best strikers in the premier league. Heading for world class. Each a strong yes.

Surely world class would also mean in the top 1-2, possibly 3 strikers in the world at the moment and he is clearly not that. It should also mean at the end of his career that he is one of the top 5 or maybe 10 strikers in history and he is clearly not anywhere near there either.

I'm also not convinced by players who stay at sides who are not winning anything and don't stand much of a chance of winning things in the future. Surely world class players would wish to play in a world class team and reach the pinnacle of their sporting potential? It's not just about money but about bettering yourself. Kane could improve by going to a side with more competition and who play better opposition across the year.

Don't get me wrong. I like Kane. I am very happy we have such a good national sportsman in football for a change, but lets not get ahead of ourselves.

p.s. Mark, please don't call me stupid. These are all just my opinions not facts.
 
Mark Pearce

Mark Pearce

Location
Newcastle upon Tyne
Gareth Powell said:
Not sure Harry Kane is world class. I think it should take longer than 3-4 seasons to bear that moniker. I am saddened when so many players are classed as world class after such a short period. It's a sad sign of the times and not helpful language. Very good. One of the best strikers in the premier league. Heading for world class. Each a strong yes.

Surely world class would also mean in the top 1-2, possibly 3 strikers in the world at the moment and he is clearly not that.
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Actually, I think he is. Who's better, at the moment? Neither Messi nor Ronaldo is a pure striker. In terms of goals scored he has more than anyone else in the world and at a far higher strike rate. In fact I don't think enough is being made of the fact that he has played so many fewer games than those who have scored nearly as many goals as Kane.
It should also mean at the end of his career that he is one of the top 5 or maybe 10 strikers in history
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Why? That seems unnecessarily restrictive and would mean there could be no more than a couple of world class players in any generation. There's a difference between being an all time great, which your definition fits, and "world class". Surely anyone clearly in contention to be the best player in his position at any time can fairly be described as world class.
and he is clearly not anywhere near there either.

I'm also not convinced by players who stay at sides who are not winning anything and don't stand much of a chance of winning things in the future. Surely world class players would wish to play in a world class team and reach the pinnacle of their sporting potential? It's not just about money but about bettering yourself. Kane could improve by going to a side with more competition and who play better opposition across the year.
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But he is improving every year where he is. And this year he has played in a side that finished above Madrid and Dortmund in a Champions League group and have Juve in the next round. He wouldn't be playing against stronger opposition anywhere else. Indeed, at City or Barcelona he wouldn't have to play against those sides, so actually he is playing against the strongest possible opposition at Spurs.
Don't get me wrong. I like Kane. I am very happy we have such a good national sportsman in football for a change, but lets not get ahead of ourselves.

p.s. Mark, please don't call me stupid. These are all just my opinions not facts.
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Why would I call you stupid? I didn't before and there's nothing here that would lead me to. Your post is sensibly argued and appears to be based on some knowledge of the game. You don't belittle Kane's achievements by suggesting that the opposition are taking bribes or make any other, equally stupid, allegation. It's a good post and what fora like this are for. Sensible, measured discussion.

Finally, I'd like to think that we can all recognise a difference between calling a post stupid and calling the person that posted it stupid.
 
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Gareth Germain

Gareth Germain

Location
London
Mark Pearce said:
Actually, I think he is. Who's better, at the moment? Neither Messi nor Ronaldo is a pure striker. In terms of goals scored he has more than anyone else in the world and at a far higher strike rate. In fact I don't think enough is being made of the fact that he has played so many fewer games than those who have scored nearly as many goals as Kane.Why? That seems unnecessarily restrictive and would mean there could be no more than a couple of world class players in any generation. There's a difference between being an all time great, which your definition fits, and "world class". Surely anyone clearly in contention to be the best player in his position at any time can fairly be described as world class.But he is improving every year where he is. And this year he has played in a side that finished above Madrid and Dortmund in a Champions League group and have Juve in the next round. He wouldn't be playing against stronger opposition anywhere else. Indeed, at City or Barcelona he wouldn't have to play against those sides, so actually he is playing against the strongest possible opposition at Spurs.Why would I call you stupid? I didn't before and there's nothing here that would lead me to. Your post is sensibly argued and appears to be based on some knowledge of the game. You don't belittle Kane's achievements by suggesting that the opposition are taking bribes or make any other, equally stupid, allegation. It's a good post and what fora like this are for. Sensible, measured discussion.

Finally, I'd like to think that we can all recognise a difference between calling a post stupid and calling the person that posted it stupid.
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I guess we just have to disagree Mark. I'm very happy having just a few world class players, seems to make much more sense of the phrase. I think your also a little short sighted in seeing Spurs as playing better opposition than Barca or Madrid, maybe for a few games, but not a whole season (though of course I could br wrong, maybe Spurs will win the Champions League, time will tell). I do hope Kane continues to improve, and that we produce some other home-grown players of similar quality soon so we can have a repeat of 66!

ps apologies was just jesting about the being stupid part. I thought Ian's post amusing and not totally serious so was amazed when it was flagged up as libelous.
 
Damian Hosty

Damian Hosty

Location
Manchester
I was a guest of the FD of one of the big bookmakers to watch Man City a couple of years ago. I was very interested in corruption and asked lots of questions about their risk assessments. The one area that he said was as close to impervious to dodgy betting was the PL. He listed many reasons: team game so you need to nobble more than 1 player, 3 substitutues means you might need to get 4-5 on each side to be absolutely sure, random results from teams playing so much better than they normally do, player wages are so high that the the size of the bribe makes it almost impossible to make enough cash through normal channels to justify the risk (say you are a lowly paid PL defender, £20K per week, how much would you expect as a bribe to cheat given that if caught you lose your livelihood, name, status? £100K? £200K? More? How much do you think a criminal organisation can place on the football market before anyone takes notice?)
I was easily convinced that overall the PL is kosher. He didn't try to convince that other gambling markets were straight but he assured me that all in all his firm's shares were a safe bet :)

As a good Man United fan I am hoping for one of two outcomes: massive implosion by City and United win the title. Or I will happily applaud when City go the season unbeaten and break the 100 point barrier. They are looking very, very impressive. And if they retain the title next season I think they will dominate for a decade.
I have said many times that so long as the title stays in Manchester I am happy. I am beginning to regret that because it does look unlikely that United will be in front of them over the next few years.
 
Mark Pearce

Mark Pearce

Location
Newcastle upon Tyne
Damian Hosty said:
I was a guest of the FD of one of the big bookmakers to watch Man City a couple of years ago. I was very interested in corruption and asked lots of questions about their risk assessments. The one area that he said was as close to impervious to dodgy betting was the PL. He listed many reasons: team game so you need to nobble more than 1 player, 3 substitutues means you might need to get 4-5 on each side to be absolutely sure, random results from teams playing so much better than they normally do, player wages are so high that the the size of the bribe makes it almost impossible to make enough cash through normal channels to justify the risk (say you are a lowly paid PL defender, £20K per week, how much would you expect as a bribe to cheat given that if caught you lose your livelihood, name, status? £100K? £200K? More? How much do you think a criminal organisation can place on the football market before anyone takes notice?)
I was easily convinced that overall the PL is kosher. He didn't try to convince that other gambling markets were straight but he assured me that all in all his firm's shares were a safe bet :)
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A friend of mine was CEO of a business that, effectively, used software to analyse football result probabilities, compared that to bookies odds and invested where there were apparent discrepancies. It was a very successful business. His view was that where their software wasn't successful it was likely to be the result of corruption. As a result, there were certain leagues they wouldn't touch. He thought the English Premiership was entirely clean. There are a few European leagues they didn't invest in, though, including a couple of surprising ones.
 
D

David Pope

Location
London
Kane gets many goals from close range. This is not due solely to inept defending but to Kane's ability to get in the right position and time his run right to get ahead of a defender, beat the offside trap and put the ball past the keeper. If this was as easy as it looks, we'd all be doing it.

Southampton did defend very poorly but Kane was in the right position each time; and the team is set up to create chances for him. The third goal was very well taken, in that Kane received the ball and delayed his shot until the keeper went down and then clipped the ball over him from an angle.
 
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