- Location
- Kent & Köln
True. Fair point. But it was a tongue in cheek comment. I was not trying to needle anyone...
Gin & Tonic! How do you like it?
- Thread starter PhilWilkins
- Start date
- Location
- Northampton
AJ.True. Fair point. But it was a tongue in cheek comment. I was not trying to needle anyone...
No worries,........ diabetics always get the needle!
- Location
- UK
I can’t taste the sweeteners in slimline at all (or if I can, it just comes across as ‘far less sweet’). That probably means I’ve got a poor palate in that department. The opposite’s true with coriander leaf though - even the tiniest shred ruins a dish for me. Utterly awful stuff, even the smell of it can be overpowering. It's funny how taste buds draw their own battle lines. Maybe that’s why, on the odd occasion I have a diet cola, I enjoy it for its cleanness rather than the cloying sugar rush of the ‘fruit sugar’ versions which is why I avoid most shop bought jam.
- Location
- Kent & Köln
Indeed. I detest all shop bought cola. Full fat is far too much and low / zero cal tastes so artificial.
- Location
- UK
That’s where our palates diverge. I don’t really notice the “artificial” edge in diet drinks. I’d be curious if people could in a blind G&T session could (I doubt it unless extremes are flagged). I can tell Fever-Tree Refreshingly Light from London Essence Original but only because I tried them side by side the other day. Both taste sweeter to me (the fructose) which is exactly why I prefer the drier/crisper feel of a proper slimline. What I can’t stand is the syrupy hit of fructose. Shop (even most homemade) jam especially even though I’m fine with most milk chocolate. Funny how it all lands differently for each of us.
- Location
- Kent & Köln
Yes. Agreed. Chocolate is an intersting one. My wife likes most chocolate, whereas I find most of it far too sweet and sickly. Especially if it is slightly warm or soft.
Because I cook a lot, I taste a lot too. Maybe this makes me overly sensitive to different flavours?
But also, maybe we all have a leaning towards sweet or savoury. Mine is the latter.
It's interesting: late last night, after restaurant service and clear up, at around 2am. I had a glass of my current favourite until yesterday, sweet, very high quality sherry. Almost syrup thick. It was repulsive - too thick and too cloying. Yet earlier in the day I would have recommended it. Fickle.
Because I cook a lot, I taste a lot too. Maybe this makes me overly sensitive to different flavours?
But also, maybe we all have a leaning towards sweet or savoury. Mine is the latter.
It's interesting: late last night, after restaurant service and clear up, at around 2am. I had a glass of my current favourite until yesterday, sweet, very high quality sherry. Almost syrup thick. It was repulsive - too thick and too cloying. Yet earlier in the day I would have recommended it. Fickle.
- Location
- Herts
I have tried to cut out habitual sugar and only have it when eating out or if too much hassle to decline in a social context. I don’t have sweet drinks and biscuits and cake and pastry day to day. Treat is a decent (plain) croissant once a week or so.
I adore Italian bitter drinks but most are now far too sweet for me (Crodino and Sanbitter as soft examples). As are most tonics. I find the artificial sweeteners make everything taste worse.
After lots of experimenting I now when seeking refreshment will drink cheap 500ml carbonated water straight from fridge or sometimes with a few dashes of Angostura or other bitters. I don’t find I need fruit or a mixer syrup. It doesn’t make my teeth hurt afterwards or feel like they need cleaning.
Is amazing now how intensely sweet most common confectionery and chocolate tastes, and I simply don’t feel like it now, and find it easy to refuse.
Occasionally I may fancy a treat and rarely will allow myself to give in. A coffee and brownie from Rosslyn in the afternoon, or some flapjack or a piece of homemade fudge.
I seem to enjoy nicely made sweet things more when I have them and have broken my previous binge habit.
I adore Italian bitter drinks but most are now far too sweet for me (Crodino and Sanbitter as soft examples). As are most tonics. I find the artificial sweeteners make everything taste worse.
After lots of experimenting I now when seeking refreshment will drink cheap 500ml carbonated water straight from fridge or sometimes with a few dashes of Angostura or other bitters. I don’t find I need fruit or a mixer syrup. It doesn’t make my teeth hurt afterwards or feel like they need cleaning.
Is amazing now how intensely sweet most common confectionery and chocolate tastes, and I simply don’t feel like it now, and find it easy to refuse.
Occasionally I may fancy a treat and rarely will allow myself to give in. A coffee and brownie from Rosslyn in the afternoon, or some flapjack or a piece of homemade fudge.
I seem to enjoy nicely made sweet things more when I have them and have broken my previous binge habit.
- Location
- Sydenham London
I thought I should mention Mahon gin from Menorca, as the base spirit must be made from distilled grapes (which should appeal to the readers of these pages), rather than wheat, potatoes, beet etc.. most of which rarely seem to be declared.
It is very juniper in flavour with a touch of resin yet very clean at the same time. about 40%.
I know there are various views on tonic waters, but I've never been a Fever Tree fan and for a, ahem, domestic measure, use a can, like Ed, of the Waitrose 250ml sugar free (beige and blue cans), all low fridge temperature, with large supermarket ice cubes (crushed ice is disastrous), and a half lime in a Riedel restaurant burgundy glass. A spash of orange Angostura bitters helps.
For less distinguished gin and for the greatest refreshment I sometimes add a wristful of Campari, fridge cold, as a sort of extended negroni. I've tried adding red vermouth (Antica Carpano is my choice) but it doesn't help.
As Tom is not keen on tonic, he might try what the Menorcans do and mix Mahon half half with lemonade, but I haven't been able to bring myself to try this.
I once saw a middle aged lady, only a couple of years back, perusing the gin section of Sainsbury's with great intent, so I asked her whether she thought the choice of gin made much difference, what with the mixers added. She looked at me very intently and said, 'Extremely important, I drink my gin neat.' I think she settled for Plymouth which is 41.2%. The naval strength demanded by the British Navy is 57% - I see Phil has tried some naval strength versions, but has anybody tried the genuine article? There must be some navy men out there.
It is very juniper in flavour with a touch of resin yet very clean at the same time. about 40%.
I know there are various views on tonic waters, but I've never been a Fever Tree fan and for a, ahem, domestic measure, use a can, like Ed, of the Waitrose 250ml sugar free (beige and blue cans), all low fridge temperature, with large supermarket ice cubes (crushed ice is disastrous), and a half lime in a Riedel restaurant burgundy glass. A spash of orange Angostura bitters helps.
For less distinguished gin and for the greatest refreshment I sometimes add a wristful of Campari, fridge cold, as a sort of extended negroni. I've tried adding red vermouth (Antica Carpano is my choice) but it doesn't help.
As Tom is not keen on tonic, he might try what the Menorcans do and mix Mahon half half with lemonade, but I haven't been able to bring myself to try this.
I once saw a middle aged lady, only a couple of years back, perusing the gin section of Sainsbury's with great intent, so I asked her whether she thought the choice of gin made much difference, what with the mixers added. She looked at me very intently and said, 'Extremely important, I drink my gin neat.' I think she settled for Plymouth which is 41.2%. The naval strength demanded by the British Navy is 57% - I see Phil has tried some naval strength versions, but has anybody tried the genuine article? There must be some navy men out there.
- Location
- Edinburgh/Bordeaux
There seem to be endless expensive gins made in Scotland now. I suppose it's much cheaper to make than whisky and a much larger market - often the gin costs more than a half decent 12yo.
- Location
- UK
I’ve never really thought about it, but you’re right - gin must be far cheaper to make than whisky. No years of maturation or warehouses full of casks Just distil, add botanicals (although some of those can be very expensive) and bottle. Supermarket gin and whisky seem similar in price, but “small batch” labels and fancy bottles could push gin prices higher, almost to justify itself next to a 12-year-old dram. I’ve not had whisky since December so I’ve stopped watching prices, but it does feel odd that something made in weeks can cost more than something aged for over a decade even before you factor the Angels Share loss! I assume Duty & VAT are the same for Gin & Whiskey depending on the alcohol strength.
- Location
- Edinburgh/Bordeaux
I suspect there's good reason a lot of distilleries are making gin!
I remember talking to a couple of good Cognac producers not long after Grey Goose set up nearby who were rather resentful for the same reason.
I remember talking to a couple of good Cognac producers not long after Grey Goose set up nearby who were rather resentful for the same reason.
- Location
- London
Which are expensive? a tiny amount goes a very long way in gin distillation and more than a tiny amount tastes very bad-I'd be amazed if they added more than a few pennies to the cost of a bottle of even the most heavily worked gin.
- Location
- Kent & Köln
Sugrue are now making gin. A few are heading our way with the next delivery from Ana.
The thing about aromatics Tom, to do them really well (super clear, very pure) the kit you need is costly. A Spinzall 2 is about $1200 plus duty, VAT and shipping (with a 5 month waiting list) and that is only enough for restaurant use, not a gin maker. Big ones are £££. Easily £50k plus VAT. Plus ideally a vacuum distiller which is also spendy, requires skill and more so £££ to do commercial volume.
Artisan producers generally can't afford this stuff I suspect. The gin bandwagon is overloaded IMO. But there are a few seriously good ones surrounded by loads of mediocre product.
The thing about aromatics Tom, to do them really well (super clear, very pure) the kit you need is costly. A Spinzall 2 is about $1200 plus duty, VAT and shipping (with a 5 month waiting list) and that is only enough for restaurant use, not a gin maker. Big ones are £££. Easily £50k plus VAT. Plus ideally a vacuum distiller which is also spendy, requires skill and more so £££ to do commercial volume.
Artisan producers generally can't afford this stuff I suspect. The gin bandwagon is overloaded IMO. But there are a few seriously good ones surrounded by loads of mediocre product.
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- Location
- London
They buy in ready-distilled bulk spirit, usually from France, I believe, macerate and re-distil.
I don't understand the need for overperfumed artisan gin, it really is an area where those with the best equipment make the best product, as is the case with most white spirits.
- Location
- Kent & Köln
I was talking about the aromatics not the bulk spirit.
I am not in disagreement though as I think gin is an ingredient and the premium stuff is mostly marketing fluff.
I am not in disagreement though as I think gin is an ingredient and the premium stuff is mostly marketing fluff.
- Location
- London
It's easy to infuse them-more about extracting less than extracting more.
- Location
- UK
An average cost breakdown for 40%vol gin thanks to Google (I assume reasonably accurate) I suspect in a basic way.
Costs are per standard 70cl bottle apparently.
I can't format it properly as a copy & paste so I've screenshot it.
Why is the "retailer profits/shelf space" and getting it from "still to shelf" is so different? I'm guessing it's been 'averaged'.
I have no idea how this would translate to a 70cl bottle of 12 year old blended or malt Scotch whisky...
- Location
- London
I'd be astonished if botanicals cost that much, they are all really cheap-around £2-3 per kilo- except angelica and the barely used cardamom, cubeb and grains of paradise. It is possible that premium neutral spirit could cost £ 2.50 if self-distilled but I really doubt it. Fifteen years ago the ex-distillery cost of a litre of finished Bombay Sapphire was fifty pence, though that will have increased.
- Location
- UK
It’s a fair point but maybe a little out of date for where gin costs are in 2025. Many of the common botanicals such as juniper, coriander and citrus peel are indeed cheap in bulk but the more premium elements (such as angelica, orris root, cardamom, cubeb and grains of paradise) are considerably more expensive especially when distillers insist on top-grade sources or use fresh rather than dried material. Yield probably plays a part too as only a fraction of what’s bought may make it into the still.
On neutral spirit... £2.50 a litre might be realistic for high-quality self-distilled spirit though commodity grain neutral spirit is cheaper. Energy costs and tighter environmental compliance have driven prices up sharply since the days when Bombay Sapphire could be produced for around 50p a litre at the distillery. In truth as you say, botanicals remain a relatively small slice of the overall cost but premium gins have seen their base costs rise significantly thanks to inflation, energy and packaging costs along with a shift toward more artisanal production, little alone the costs of duty & VAT!
- Location
- UK
Picking up from my last post, I’ve been thinking more about how I actually enjoy gin and tonic (I haven't drunk any other spirit except whisky or bourbon until 12/24, and haven’t bought any since). Gin is surely meant to show off its botanicals, juniper, citrus, spice, yet so many tonics these days are too sweet, flavoured or vile that end up fighting the gin instead of letting it shine. Vodka probably suffers the same fate (though I don’t drink it) esp paired with whatever bold mixer is at hand, when a clean, well-made vodka deserves better. Drowning premium spirits is like pouring a fine dry Clare Valley Riesling into a sugary cocktail. Tequila is probably the same but a good blanco or reposado should be savoured on its own not buried in a sugary margarita. The simple rule is let the spirit speak for itself and choose mixers that actually complement it. Discovering this late in life has made me appreciate spirits properly with something subtle that respects their character.
- Location
- Kent & Köln
Have you tried San Pellegrini Oakwood Tonic Water? It's quite unusual with a subtle bark taste or aroma along with gentle quinine. No one has ever actually chewed on a piece of oak bark to check the flavour I suspect. They do a citrus version as well, which is quite sharp. Lovely little glass bottles adds a premium feel but also a lot of distribution miles unless you live in Località Ruspino.
- Location
- Edinburgh/Bordeaux
I was looking for something else (don't ask) in the premix aisle in Tesco today - and I noticed their canned G&T was only 5% alc.
Initially assumed this must be a cheapskate move by Tesco (the slim can was £1.10) then noticed the Gordons (£2.25) was the same!
Left with no canned G&T.
Initially assumed this must be a cheapskate move by Tesco (the slim can was £1.10) then noticed the Gordons (£2.25) was the same!
Left with no canned G&T.
- Location
- UK
Cripes that's only 33ml of 37.5%abv gin in that premixed 250ml tin. Not much is it.
Apparently the equation to work out the alcohol content of home mixed G+Tis.... ABV% of G&T = (Gin ml × Gin ABV%) ÷ (Gin ml + Tonic ml)
For example: 50 ml of 42% gin + 150 ml tonic → (50 × 42) ÷ (50 + 150) = 10.5% ABV. I wonder is there is an optimal dilution percentage? Reckon mine would be 10 - 12% judging by my tastes over the years.
I might try one at a 14.5% Chateauneuf strength G+T soon which is roughly 79 ml of 42% gin mixed with 150 ml tin of tonic to reach the 14.5% ABV! That's more than 50% extra gin (at 42%abv) which is more than I thought - about 9 G&T's a bottle!
- Location
- London
Absolutely-I tend to think that soda water is actually better though the Lidl small tin tonic is quite close to that, and nothing like the insane price of 'premium' tins.
I've always reckoned on 8 drinks per bottle, which is why I prefer litres. I like a good bang from my spirituous drinks, of which I will usually only have one.
- Location
- Northampton
Funny how we all monitor these things differently.
I never pour freehand without a measure.
No singles allowed, house rule.
So my take is that I get 14 doubles from a standard bottle.
Given the gins we buy that equates to just under £7 a round for Debbi and I once tonic and garnish are factored in.
She likes English mini cucumber with Hedricks
M&S Navel orange or Pink Grapefruit and I like the limited Sicilian lemons that Lidl often have.
We have a very large established Rosemary outside our front window, and a friend gifted us a super Thyme last year.
I count them as nil cost.
A couple of years ago we had a batch of Britvic tonics where the crown caps were inconsistently sealed.
I used to swear a bit if we were unlucky and had to feed the sink with spoiled GnT's
I never pour freehand without a measure.
No singles allowed, house rule.
So my take is that I get 14 doubles from a standard bottle.
Given the gins we buy that equates to just under £7 a round for Debbi and I once tonic and garnish are factored in.
She likes English mini cucumber with Hedricks
M&S Navel orange or Pink Grapefruit and I like the limited Sicilian lemons that Lidl often have.
We have a very large established Rosemary outside our front window, and a friend gifted us a super Thyme last year.
I count them as nil cost.
A couple of years ago we had a batch of Britvic tonics where the crown caps were inconsistently sealed.
I used to swear a bit if we were unlucky and had to feed the sink with spoiled GnT's