Is Terroir etc just hokum?

[AJ Temple]

I thought this was an interesting article by Sunny Hodge a London Somm who takes a somewhat science based approach to wine. He regards most descriptors as unhelpful nonsense, and a lot of what we are told about wine as marketing BS.

The article is free to read. He's pushing a book so bring a pinch of salt, but I don't think his reasoning and approach can be dismissed out of hand.

The wine expert that thinks that terroir is a load of old rot

 

[Jonathan Beagle]

Interesting read but clearly the headline is clickbait and he undermines his own arguments when using the Cab Franc from Ningxia… and shies away from the old point of one producers two neighbouring vineyards in Burgundy/Piemonte to showcase what happens with different vineyards aspects and topography. Now I don’t disagree that people talk about that like magic fairy-dust but it is something to address to make the point they are trying to make.

It is refreshing that he’s shied away from the pomp and grandeur which puts a lot of people off and that should really be the takeaway!

 

[Mark Palmer]

Interesting read but clearly the headline is clickbait and he undermines his own arguments when using the Cab Franc from Ningxia… and shies away from the old point of one producers two neighbouring vineyards in Burgundy/Piemonte to showcase what happens with different vineyards aspects and topography. Now I don’t disagree that people talk about that like magic fairy-dust but it is something to address to make the point they are trying to make.

It is refreshing that he’s shied away from the pomp and grandeur which puts a lot of people off and that should really be the takeaway!

Thank you Jonno, saved me the bother of making these same points.

He’s an engineer and approaches it with that mindset. Which is fine, but it’s only one way of looking at the problem.

 

[Thom Blach]

In Burgundy terroir is simultaneously of the very essence and a load of absolute bollocks. It is that genuinely paradoxical tension which ensures continuing fascination and pleasure.

 

[Jonathan Beagle]

In Burgundy terroir is simultaneously of the very essence and a load of absolute bollocks. It is that genuinely paradoxical tension which ensures continuing fascination and pleasure.

I suppose no one will disagree with the: Terroir exists and impacts the wine but anyone who says “you can really taste the terroir” is talking out of their nether regions!

I’m certain I’m guilty of this on a regular occurrence and I’m quite happy to acknowledge that paradox!

 

[Alex Rychlewski]

The question is hardly new and terroir has shown its influence time and time again.
It's not the be-all and end-all, of course, and many blended wines are marvelous.

But anyone who has seen someone identify a wine blind must come away convinced to some degree.

AR

 

[Rusnam Tano]

A few years ago, I recall speaking to a small winemaker in a region full of indigenous grape varieties: I asked him why, despite this, he made wines from exclusively Bordeaux varieties.

His response was that he wanted to use the "exceptional terroir" to get the best out of these varieties. I found this disappointing, though perhaps I am being too much of a purist / romantic in my outlook. I just find it more interesting if a producer uses local varieties.

 

[Mark Palmer]

The question is hardly new and terroir has shown its influence time and time again.
It's not the be-all and end-all, of course, and many blended wines are marvelous.

But anyone who has seen someone identify a wine blind must come away convinced to some degree.

AR

At a semi-blind tasting (tasters knew that each of the wines came from one of the big four appellations in the Northern Rhône, but not the vintage or producer) last week, my four guests immediately and almost simultaneously spotted a Cornas.

Of course they all also immediately and with a similar level of confidence spotted a St Joseph which someone or somebody had annoyingly affixed a Cote Rotie label.

Many conclusions can be drawn from the above two examples. Therein lies the crux of the terroir argument IMHO.

 

[AJ Temple]

Interesting though. I didn't think the headline was just clickbait. To me he made some quite pointed remarks and there is no doubt that many or most people are influenced by marketing. His remark that we carry prejudices - so a wine from Texas we might expect to be bad, and when people are fed descriptive terms on a wine list then that influences what they taste or smell, and price point sets an expectation too. If we are just given a wine to taste and we either like it or not and it goes with our meal or it doesn't, then that is quite an interesting approach.

 

[AJ Temple]

The question is hardly new and terroir has shown its influence time and time again.
It's not the be-all and end-all, of course, and many blended wines are marvelous.

But anyone who has seen someone identify a wine blind must come away convinced to some degree.

AR

I agree not new. But I'm not sure that anyone claimed that. My experience of people identifying a wine blind, is that it is pretty limited usually to a certain style or region. For example I am very interested in fine Bordeaux and could have a good stab at identifying a few blind, but with other regions where I am significantly more inexperienced, there would be no chance of any exactitude. We did a Rioja tasting last autumn for a largish dining group and even though I have been drinking decent Rioja for at least 10 years, I was not alone in finding it difficult.

 

[Mark Palmer]

Interesting though. I didn't think the headline was just clickbait. To me he made some quite pointed remarks and there is no doubt that many or most people are influenced by marketing. His remark that we carry prejudices - so a wine from Texas we might expect to be bad, and when people are fed descriptive terms on a wine list then that influences what they taste or smell, and price point sets an expectation too. If we are just given a wine to taste and we either like it or not and it goes with our meal or it doesn't, then that is quite an interesting approach.

I agree with all of those points, but it doesn’t prove that terroir doesn't exist, merely that plenty of people either exaggerate its importance in order to influence our opinion, or sell something to us at a fundamentally incorrect price.

Putting fancy labels on bottles in order to appeal to our human prejudices and expectations is another way of achieving the same end.

 

[Mark Palmer]

Interesting though. I didn't think the headline was just clickbait. To me he made some quite pointed remarks and there is no doubt that many or most people are influenced by marketing. His remark that we carry prejudices - so a wine from Texas we might expect to be bad, and when people are fed descriptive terms on a wine list then that influences what they taste or smell, and price point sets an expectation too. If we are just given a wine to taste and we either like it or not and it goes with our meal or it doesn't, then that is quite an interesting approach.

Let’s take another tack….

As a chef what do you think of Jersey Royals? Terroir, marketing bullshit, or something else? What about Jersey Royals lookalikes from other parts of the UK? Are we consumers unfairly biased against potatoes from these unfashionable places and merely swallowing the hype?

 

[Phil David]

A few years ago, I recall speaking to a small winemaker in a region full of indigenous grape varieties: I asked him why, despite this, he made wines from exclusively Bordeaux varieties.

His response was that he wanted to use the "exceptional terroir" to get the best out of these varieties. I found this disappointing, though perhaps I am being too much of a purist / romantic in my outlook. I just find it more interesting if a producer uses local varieties.

How far back are you going to define indigenous? Taken to its conclusion you'd be limiting your quest to wines from Georgia or thereabouts.

 

[Brad Greatrix]

For those that doubt terroir’s influence, we can do a simple thought experiment, even without any requirement for scientific or enginering information… Let’s strip away all the various contributing factors except for temperature. Does anyone doubt that growing season temperature has an effect on the taste profile of grapes? Surely not.

Now imagine going for a walk one afternoon. Up and down hills, nearby and then away from a stream, close to and then away from buildings, in and out of shade etc… Does anyone doubt that there would be temperature differences along that route? And imagine on your walk you planted a grape vine every metre as you walked… Would they all produce the same taste profile? Surely not…

And that is just considering one element… temperature.

Now overlay other factors that can influence vine growth like water availability, sunlight intensity, prevailing wind speed and direction etc etc… A whole myriad of factors, all influencing vine/grape development, with each of those factors itself influenced by place as we’ve covered in our ‘temperature walk’ above…

That terroir is difficult to articulate is not a reason to doubt its existence. To me the characteristics of terroir can be a bit like the noise of an air conditioner in an office… No one notices it until it is taken away. I can say from my own experiences that the characteristics of wines grown on greensand became substantially more clear when we started harvesting wines grown on chalk. (And note here I’m speaking about soil, not terroir, another conflation in the terroir-sceptic world)…

 

[Bryan Collins]

I never thought much of "Jersey Royals" and I suspect almost all of what we see are basically just quite nice new potatoes. But then during Covid I got a few bags of Rabets from Wellocks. They were divine. Naturally as soon as Covid became a memory so did Wellocks deigning to flog great unwashed potatoes to the great unwashed.

The only other potatoes that I've ever been quite that taken by were served to me by a potato farmer relative of another forumite in Helmsley. No idea what they were but bugger me if they weren't amazing.

 

[Mark Palmer]

That terroir is difficult to articulate is not a reason to doubt its existence.

Precisely. I also don’t doubt how difficult it is to articulate….

 

[max.oldfield]

Had dinner with some mates many years ago and we consumed a bottle of 1978 penfolds grange from the Magill estate The alcohol was 11.8. As the bottle was covered my guess was J L chave. I have consumed many other grange over the years and my favourite was 1982. Terroir is very important. As you are all aware Grange is not terroir these days but a blend.

 

[Rusnam Tano]

How far back are you going to define indigenous? Taken to its conclusion you'd be limiting your quest to wines from Georgia or thereabouts.

Of course - I was referring specifically to places like Greece Armenia, Georgia, Turkey etc - i.e. places that do have widely grown indigenous varieties today - in such places, I'd rather drink these than more international varieties.

But again I am generalising: e.g. if I was in Armenia and a producer had a 100% Areni and a 100% Merlot, I would be more interested in trying the former. That doesn't mean I don't think the terroir in Armenia can't make fantastic Merlot, because of course it could... I'm just not sure why that's the road the producer would go down... But it's their land!

 

[Thom Blach]

I never thought much of "Jersey Royals" and I suspect almost all of what we see are basically just quite nice new potatoes. But then during Covid I got a few bags of Rabets from Wellocks. They were divine. Naturally as soon as Covid became a memory so did Wellocks deigning to flog great unwashed potatoes to the great unwashed.

The only other potatoes that I've ever been quite that taken by were served to me by a potato farmer relative of another forumite in Helmsley. No idea what they were but bugger me if they weren't amazing.

I'd like to find some of those, Jersey Royals have been an immense disappointment in recent decades.
Who was the Burgundy wine grower who maintained that potatoes were the best of all terroir transmitters?
A freshly dug potato from well-drained soil can be wonderful.

 

[Thom Blach]

The question is hardly new and terroir has shown its influence time and time again.
It's not the be-all and end-all, of course, and many blended wines are marvelous.

But anyone who has seen someone identify a wine blind must come away convinced to some degree.

AR

There are so many variables, though, many of them human or economic rather than geographical or gustatory regarding both production and consumption. Blind tasting is a very complex calculation involving all of those elements.

 

[AJ Temple]

I should add - I was not personally suggesting that terroir is not important - just that I found it interesting that a trade site was giving him quite a bit of airtime and he had some interesting things to say. We can equally well argue that people who have invested a lot of time and money in wine (including me) have a vested interest in believing in some of the things he judges to be hype. We're all biased and we all like different things.

Now spuds. First off I am not a chef as I can barely manage myself let alone a brigade. I'm a cook and I do it in a restaurant.

Jersey Royals. I like them. But they are just an International Kidney and taste the same and cook the same as any IK early to me. We grow them in our kitchen garden actually! I also like Ratte, Pink Fir, Anya, Yukon Gold, Koffmans, and so on - depends what I'm cooking. Jerseys have protected status and I see nothing wrong with that. Very nice steamed, some malden salt flakes, some freshly picked mint and generously buttered. You can even add a little bit of sugar....

 

[Remington Norman]

In Burgundy terroir is simultaneously of the very essence and a load of absolute bollocks. It is that genuinely paradoxical tension which ensures continuing fascination and pleasure.

This might help. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Qm8Bb6CmiSPiVMeDW_GmBXv2Dc6K1VqP/view?usp=drivesdk

 

[Mark Temple]

Probably the merlot Of course - I was referring specifically to places like Greece Armenia, Georgia, Turkey etc - i.e. places that do have widely grown indigenous varieties today - in such places, I'd rather drink these than more international varieties.

But again I am generalising: e.g. if I was in Armenia and a producer had a 100% Areni and a 100% Merlot, I would be more interested in trying the former. That doesn't mean I don't think the terroir in Armenia can't make fantastic Merlot, because of course it could... I'm just not sure why that's the road the producer would go down... But it's their land

A few years ago, I recall speaking to a small winemaker in a region full of indigenous grape varieties: I asked him why, despite this, he made wines from exclusively Bordeaux varieties.

His response was that he wanted to use the "exceptional terroir" to get the best out of these varieties. I found this disappointing, though perhaps I am being too much of a purist / romantic in my outlook. I just find it more interesting if a producer uses local varieties.

Probably the Merlot could sell on the local market at double the price?

Certainly was the case in Spain in the 90s. Very much a phase.

 

[Chris Hambleton]

Here's a question - if terroir did not exist, would the position of sommelier?

 

[Thom Blach]

This might help. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Qm8Bb6CmiSPiVMeDW_GmBXv2Dc6K1VqP/view?usp=drivesdk

I can't open that, sadly, though my observation is in no sense geographical!

Here's a question - if terroir did not exist, would the position of sommelier?

Yes. I don't think that even the proponents of the 'terroir is bunk' theory would claim that all wines were the same.
I suspect that this whole discussion is probably predicated on a question that is silly in the sense that any conceivable answer will be irrelevant.