- Location
- England
Not old enough to know for sure but I would have thought that the concept of the large red burgundy bowl has been around for quite a long time.
TN Nick’s 2002 Burgundy @ Noizé
- Thread starter Simon Grant
- Start date
- Location
- East Cambs
A small brandy balloon is still not uncommon in Burgundy cellars. At least in November the temperature is correct.
- Location
- London
Thanks everyone. Fab evening. Sorry for the tardiness of my thoughts.
I thought the flights on table 1 for the reds progressed really well. Of the Gevrey wines the Jadot CSJ showed wonderfully. I didn't find it too warm just lovely red fruited, gentle spice and a wonderful lingering presence on the palate. Clearly the WOTF. The Maume was a bid muddy for my tastes and the Drouhin-Laroze needed more time but there is a good wine waiting to fully unfurl there.
The second flight really shook things up. These were all really elegant classy wines, only the Tardy showed a fraction rustic, but was still deeply pleasurable. This was not so much a NSG flight as a Vosne influenced NSG flight. The reason I try and buy Boudots so often is that it bordered Malconsort and can, in the right hands, offer nearly as much pleasure, power and finesse whilst avoiding the extra £££ the name Vosne seems to bring! The Grivot was perfect. Everything I want from that Domaine. Still a little muscular but such finesse and fine tannins, it really, really blossomed after an hour and was fighting the Mugneret-Gibourg from WOTF. The Chevillon was superb from the off. Really pretty sexy on the nose. Just full of super duper aromatics and a great balanced palate that flourished and endured. However for me the Mugneret-Gibourg took things to another level. To be specific. It took things to am extremely red fruited, floral and grandmas talcum powder heavenly place. This really was like lace. Elegant. Refined. Majestic even. Just scrummy. Wow. I wish I owned some
The final flights I took no its promise rather than what was exactly in the glass at this time. The Clos Vougeot was charming, finely boned, and still slightly burly. Plenty of cranberry and spice and perfume. Pretty decadent after an hour. So much here already and so much to come. A really good Vougeot. However, the RSV was just hugely impressive. It has a big frame, yet such subtlety and class. Really quite rich on the nose but also cool (don't ask me how). I could sniff this all night. Really pretty incredible. Come back in 5-7 years and I imagine this will be absolutely realising its promise. Wow. Though the £9k recent vintages go for put this in DRC territory price wise!
The whites were lovely and a good start. I found the Fevre initially more pleasurable but air and heat did it no favours and it faded a little. The Raveneau to be honest I found disappointing. I was expecting much more. As others have noticed it was a little alcoholic and just didn't seem to exhibit any classical aged Raveneau notes. Maybe it was just me. Still a very good wine but not the wow I was expecting. Special thanks to Dan for opening these and the Mugneret-Gibourg.
We managed to get through the evening with no duffers which I imagine was more good luck. Re wine temps I always stand red burg up in the wine fridge (at 14C) and then take out between 1 hour (when its 18-19C) or 20 mins (when its 25C+) to come up to temp. Seems to always work with things starting off very slightly cool but then coming around within 10-15 mins. I often in summer put it back in the fridge for 20-30 mins between the first and second pour to keep things right.
Re table 2 temps I didn't see any difference between the two tables in that regard.
Re points and quality on table 1 looking at CT I see: -
92.6 2002 Domaine des Lambrays Clos des Lambrays
91.9 2002 Domaine Darviot-Perrin Meursault 1er Cru Les Genevrières
91.4 2002 Domaine de Montille Volnay 1er Cru Taillepieds
91.3 2002 Domaine de Montille Volnay 1er Cru Les Brouillards
91 2002 Domaine de Courcel Pommard 1er Cru Grand Clos des Épenots
90.6 2002 Domaine Henri Gouges Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Clos des Porrets St. Georges
90.5 2002 Nicolas Potel Clos de la Roche - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Clos de la Roche Grand Cru
90.5 2002 Jean-Jacques Vincent Pouilly-Fuissé Château de Fuissé Collection Privée
90 2002 Simon Bize Savigny-lès-Beaune 1er Cru Aux Vergelesses
(no CT) 2002 Domaine Aleth Girardin Pommard Les Vigno
(no CT) 2002 Domaine Darviot-Perrin Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru Blanchots Dessus
These pretty much resemble the scoring of Simon (excepting the flawed wines) so I'm not sure the wines were much off perhaps people just had higher expectations, though obviously the faulty wines were more than average. The Lambray when on form is comfortably ahead of everything else. The Pouilly-Fuissé has another poor note which wasn't scored so that would have brought it down closer to where Simon put it and the Potel just isn't a good wine for its level.
If you compare this to Table 1
94.7 2002 Domaine Robert Arnoux / Arnoux-Lachaux Romanée St. Vivant
94.2 2002 François Raveneau Chablis Grand Cru Les Clos
93 2002 Domaine Robert Arnoux / Arnoux-Lachaux Clos Vougeot
93 2002 William Fèvre Chablis Grand Cru Les Clos
93.4 2002 Domaine Robert Chevillon Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Les Vaucrains
92.7 2002 Louis Jadot Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru Clos St. Jacques
92.6 2002 Domaine Jean Grivot Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Les Boudots
91.6 2002 Domaine Georges Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Les Chaignots
91.5 2002 Domaine Drouhin-Laroze Chambertin-Clos de Bèze
91.5 2002 Domaine Jean Tardy et Fils Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Les Boudots
90 2002 Domaine Maume Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru Champeaux
I think the wines performed pretty much as expected. I tend to always rate Mugneret-Gibourg highly because I love the style but otherwise things are pretty on the money for what people said.
Anyhow, thanks Nick for your organising skills! Roll on the next Burgfest!
I thought the flights on table 1 for the reds progressed really well. Of the Gevrey wines the Jadot CSJ showed wonderfully. I didn't find it too warm just lovely red fruited, gentle spice and a wonderful lingering presence on the palate. Clearly the WOTF. The Maume was a bid muddy for my tastes and the Drouhin-Laroze needed more time but there is a good wine waiting to fully unfurl there.
The second flight really shook things up. These were all really elegant classy wines, only the Tardy showed a fraction rustic, but was still deeply pleasurable. This was not so much a NSG flight as a Vosne influenced NSG flight. The reason I try and buy Boudots so often is that it bordered Malconsort and can, in the right hands, offer nearly as much pleasure, power and finesse whilst avoiding the extra £££ the name Vosne seems to bring! The Grivot was perfect. Everything I want from that Domaine. Still a little muscular but such finesse and fine tannins, it really, really blossomed after an hour and was fighting the Mugneret-Gibourg from WOTF. The Chevillon was superb from the off. Really pretty sexy on the nose. Just full of super duper aromatics and a great balanced palate that flourished and endured. However for me the Mugneret-Gibourg took things to another level. To be specific. It took things to am extremely red fruited, floral and grandmas talcum powder heavenly place. This really was like lace. Elegant. Refined. Majestic even. Just scrummy. Wow. I wish I owned some
The final flights I took no its promise rather than what was exactly in the glass at this time. The Clos Vougeot was charming, finely boned, and still slightly burly. Plenty of cranberry and spice and perfume. Pretty decadent after an hour. So much here already and so much to come. A really good Vougeot. However, the RSV was just hugely impressive. It has a big frame, yet such subtlety and class. Really quite rich on the nose but also cool (don't ask me how). I could sniff this all night. Really pretty incredible. Come back in 5-7 years and I imagine this will be absolutely realising its promise. Wow. Though the £9k recent vintages go for put this in DRC territory price wise!
The whites were lovely and a good start. I found the Fevre initially more pleasurable but air and heat did it no favours and it faded a little. The Raveneau to be honest I found disappointing. I was expecting much more. As others have noticed it was a little alcoholic and just didn't seem to exhibit any classical aged Raveneau notes. Maybe it was just me. Still a very good wine but not the wow I was expecting. Special thanks to Dan for opening these and the Mugneret-Gibourg.
We managed to get through the evening with no duffers which I imagine was more good luck. Re wine temps I always stand red burg up in the wine fridge (at 14C) and then take out between 1 hour (when its 18-19C) or 20 mins (when its 25C+) to come up to temp. Seems to always work with things starting off very slightly cool but then coming around within 10-15 mins. I often in summer put it back in the fridge for 20-30 mins between the first and second pour to keep things right.
Re table 2 temps I didn't see any difference between the two tables in that regard.
Re points and quality on table 1 looking at CT I see: -
92.6 2002 Domaine des Lambrays Clos des Lambrays
91.9 2002 Domaine Darviot-Perrin Meursault 1er Cru Les Genevrières
91.4 2002 Domaine de Montille Volnay 1er Cru Taillepieds
91.3 2002 Domaine de Montille Volnay 1er Cru Les Brouillards
91 2002 Domaine de Courcel Pommard 1er Cru Grand Clos des Épenots
90.6 2002 Domaine Henri Gouges Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Clos des Porrets St. Georges
90.5 2002 Nicolas Potel Clos de la Roche - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Clos de la Roche Grand Cru
90.5 2002 Jean-Jacques Vincent Pouilly-Fuissé Château de Fuissé Collection Privée
90 2002 Simon Bize Savigny-lès-Beaune 1er Cru Aux Vergelesses
(no CT) 2002 Domaine Aleth Girardin Pommard Les Vigno
(no CT) 2002 Domaine Darviot-Perrin Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru Blanchots Dessus
These pretty much resemble the scoring of Simon (excepting the flawed wines) so I'm not sure the wines were much off perhaps people just had higher expectations, though obviously the faulty wines were more than average. The Lambray when on form is comfortably ahead of everything else. The Pouilly-Fuissé has another poor note which wasn't scored so that would have brought it down closer to where Simon put it and the Potel just isn't a good wine for its level.
If you compare this to Table 1
94.7 2002 Domaine Robert Arnoux / Arnoux-Lachaux Romanée St. Vivant
94.2 2002 François Raveneau Chablis Grand Cru Les Clos
93 2002 Domaine Robert Arnoux / Arnoux-Lachaux Clos Vougeot
93 2002 William Fèvre Chablis Grand Cru Les Clos
93.4 2002 Domaine Robert Chevillon Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Les Vaucrains
92.7 2002 Louis Jadot Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru Clos St. Jacques
92.6 2002 Domaine Jean Grivot Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Les Boudots
91.6 2002 Domaine Georges Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Les Chaignots
91.5 2002 Domaine Drouhin-Laroze Chambertin-Clos de Bèze
91.5 2002 Domaine Jean Tardy et Fils Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Les Boudots
90 2002 Domaine Maume Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru Champeaux
I think the wines performed pretty much as expected. I tend to always rate Mugneret-Gibourg highly because I love the style but otherwise things are pretty on the money for what people said.
Anyhow, thanks Nick for your organising skills! Roll on the next Burgfest!
- Location
- London
Am just about to drink 1999 Hudelot Noellat Chambolle Charmes at Noize - it is currently in the fridge.. Interesting to read these thoughts. I had a Coravin sip this morning to check it wasn't corked and I am quite excited.
- Location
- London
There is no such thing as just one glass that is correct for burgundy. There are many varieties of the basic "tulip" shape that work well. For me, a rim which is as thin as possible, enhances my drinking pleasure enormously. I have not found a finer rim than Zalto and their burgundy glass is just great. I do also like the hand blown Gabriel glasses.
Re temperature, I always serve my wines on the cold side as, if the user finds the wine too cold, it can be warmed up simply by putting your hands around it. If on the other hand, it is served too warm, you are stuck with it.
Re temperature, I always serve my wines on the cold side as, if the user finds the wine too cold, it can be warmed up simply by putting your hands around it. If on the other hand, it is served too warm, you are stuck with it.
- Location
- London
There certainly were some. But not that many!
Burgundy traditionally had a bigger bowl, but nowhere near as large as Riedel made them. And outside of Burgundy, except maybe in an expensive restaurant, one rarely saw the larger bowl. Moreover, often there was no tapering of the bowl towards the top -- I'm thinking of expensive Bacccarat crystal called "Volnay" as one example, and moreover, the glass was very shallow, so there wasn't much room between the wine and the top of the glass. Otherwise, glassware was usually rather clunky and glasses rather small. If you ever come across early additions of Johnson's(/Robinson's) World Atlas of Wine, you can get some idea from that, but even so, that was glassware for wine geeks, and difficult to come across.
- Location
- London
I’m a bit late to this thread, and don’t have too much to add to the notes on table 2, but in general I found the wines pretty appealing, the Whites were a little surprising, the Fevre really creamy and the Raveneau really tight and youthful but unfurled with time in the glass. Cheese & chalk indeed.
From the reds, the nose on the Maume was like wotsits for me, which put me off a bit to be honest, the Jadot CSJ was almost pretty, vineyard over producer ?
the NSG flight was a real success, not what anyone expected but all good wines with the Chevillon ahead by a nose, I really enjoyed them all. The final flight demanded more time with the wines, less surprising that these were still fairly tight, but the complexity of aromatics in the RSV was quite a seductive treat even at this stage.
you could do this again with any of the reds in 5 or more years, or 10 years+ for the grand crus, and that would be fun, but I enjoyed this 20 years on showing very much and felt for those on the other table.
thanks Nick for organising and Noize for the hospitality, a really fun evening
From the reds, the nose on the Maume was like wotsits for me, which put me off a bit to be honest, the Jadot CSJ was almost pretty, vineyard over producer ?
the NSG flight was a real success, not what anyone expected but all good wines with the Chevillon ahead by a nose, I really enjoyed them all. The final flight demanded more time with the wines, less surprising that these were still fairly tight, but the complexity of aromatics in the RSV was quite a seductive treat even at this stage.
you could do this again with any of the reds in 5 or more years, or 10 years+ for the grand crus, and that would be fun, but I enjoyed this 20 years on showing very much and felt for those on the other table.
thanks Nick for organising and Noize for the hospitality, a really fun evening
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- Location
- Northampton
I'm getting confused here - I thought you and I were on table 2, with Gareth and Ian....
I have to say I was a bit less impressed by the Fevre than others on the table; the Raveneau was very tightly wound at first but I felt it had opened up later and I really enjoyed it.
- Location
- London
I was on that table Mike, duly amended my bad
- Location
- London
While I am extremely enthusiastic about Maume in general I have had eight bottles from a case of this so far and I really couldn't call it a success.
- Location
- London and Boston
Funnily enough, in the eighties there were plenty of decent burgundy friendly glasses around. I own 4 large bowl shaped glasses, bought at Habitat in about 1985, that are still occasionally pressed into service. It was the Riedel Bordeaux style glass that was missing from the mix i.e. a glass better suited to the N. Rhone and claret. If I remember correctly, at the time most good wine in decent restaurants was served in these larger bowl-shaped glasses. Does anyone remember differently?
- Location
- Northampton
ThIs has been a fascinating thread to read against the backdrop that the forum seems generally quiet.
I have come to realise that the 02 Burgs come from a regarded vintage and ( being Burgundy )with prices to match.
I should certainly have been edgy about glasses and temperature if expectations weren’t met, so I hope my earlier more general thoughts around the factors of off lines weren’t distracting.
I have come to realise that the 02 Burgs come from a regarded vintage and ( being Burgundy )with prices to match.
I should certainly have been edgy about glasses and temperature if expectations weren’t met, so I hope my earlier more general thoughts around the factors of off lines weren’t distracting.
- Location
- London
When I first visited Burgundy in 1995 I'm not convinced some places weren't still giving you tastevins to taste from. But perhaps that is a romantic "memory". I can't imagine they made for great swirling.
But either way I've certainly had some stellar Burgundy experiences well before the modern trend (which I thoroughly approve of) for much larger and finer glasses, so I'm not convinced it is that critical. Temperature I'm more onside with.
I don't recall ever been given a tastevin for me to taste from, but Charles Rousseau and Robert Groffier always tasted from one, down to the last tastings I had with them, the former in the 2000s, the later in the mid-1990s.
A story about the 2002s, if I'm not repeating myself. Immediately after the harvest, there was tremendous enthusiasm, and when I visited Fourrier in late October or early November 2002 (yes, 2002), he told me that people were already sending him requests to quote prices on his 2002s (and this, mind you, was at a time when his wines were much less sought-after than they are today).
- Location
- London
Unless you have an outdoor only dinner like we had back in 2021, when the wine got colder after time in the glass! I remember the wine developed in an interesting (and good) manner when it got more air at the same time got colder.... until it's so cold it hurted my teeth.
Another thing that pandemic taught us.
- Location
- North East
I believe Howard is actually referring Yves Tavant who Confuron replaced. There was an issue in one of the early to mid-nineties vintages but I don't recall exactly which as I never took notes on our trips.
- Location
- North East
Charles did use a tastevin but we were always given glasses
- Location
- England
I was at the chevaliers de tastevins dinner in clos vougeot that October and everyone there was extremely happy. They thought it was the best vintage they'd ever had.
- Location
- London
I have rather reluctantly to concede that many red burgundies can slip from too young to too old without ever finding a middle ground, part of the reason that I am starting to prefer younger wines, though that also seems a common reaction to becoming older oneself.
- Location
- Dorset, England
Some people have always preferred to avoid old wines.
- Location
- London
Which on the whole is very sensible, Mark. It's just that almost everyone's most memorable wine experiences are of fairly ancient bottles that have miraculously withstood the ravages of time.
- Location
- Dorset, England
Indeed Tom.
A recent Vega Sicilia ‘60 springs to mind. Unlikely to be surpassed by any other red during this year.
A recent Vega Sicilia ‘60 springs to mind. Unlikely to be surpassed by any other red during this year.
Incredibly belated notes from me...
2002 BURGS - Noize (05/05/2022)
Three months on from looking at the 2001s, here we are with some lovely 2002s
Fizz
Cheddar and cream cheese gougeres
Pollock, fresh peas, grilled baby corn, seaweed sauce
Cornish chicken breast, crushed Jersey Royals, broccoli, mustard jus
Roasted veal, aubergine puree, courgette, jus
Epoisses
We did surprisingly well with the whites!
2002 BURGS - Noize (05/05/2022)
Three months on from looking at the 2001s, here we are with some lovely 2002s
Fizz
Cheddar and cream cheese gougeres
- 2014 Gaston Chiquet Champagne Special Club Brut - France, Champagne
70% Chardonnay and 30% Pinot Noir, vinified in tank, full malo, 8g/l dosage. Nicely balanced and evolved. Bright and fumey on the nose, with ginger and lime, then more full-bodied on the palate than that suggested - rounded, richly fruited, a little nutty. Plenty of scope for ageing, but delicious already. (92 pts.)
Pollock, fresh peas, grilled baby corn, seaweed sauce
- 2002 William Fèvre Chablis Grand Cru Les Clos - France, Burgundy, Chablis, Chablis Grand Cru
Fully mature, rather yellow, but not oxidised or tired. Lactic on the nose, especially at first - is that a note of sour cream and chive Pringles?! Lots to enjoy on the palate: herbal, yeasty, softly creamy, some lemon curd, very chewy and long. We didn't find much Chablis typicity, save for a certain bite to the midpalate, but it was a delicious wine. (93 pts.) - 2002 François Raveneau Chablis Grand Cru Les Clos - France, Burgundy, Chablis, Chablis Grand Cru
Shockingly pale and youthful at 20 years old! Really interesting style, with the exotic aromas and cool restraint one often finds in GG Riesling. Elegant and fragrant on the nose, with (an expensive, high-quality) oolong tea, a touch of tropical fruit; I'd have been happy to dab it as perfume. On the palate I found lemon sherbert, sassafrass (I normally don't like that note, but it was harmonious in this instance) and a saline finish, as well as an overall sense of calm, inviting softness. My #3 wine of the night. (94 pts.)
Cornish chicken breast, crushed Jersey Royals, broccoli, mustard jus
- 2002 Domaine Maume Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru Champeaux - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru
Probably tonight's most evolved red - fully mature, savoury with tertiary development including a touch of truffle. Still fresh enough, but the finish fell slightly short. Enjoyable, but overshadowed by its flight-mates. (91 pts.) - 2002 Louis Jadot Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru Clos St. Jacques - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru
This was great - really in the zone. Heady, red-fruited nose, also showing some black cherry and peach skin. Excellent on the palate, so moreish and alluring: spicy and exotic, flavours of violet and Luxardo cherry, silky yet with sufficient grip. It's not often that these richer Burgundies are so balanced and drinkable but I could have drunk a flagon of this. My WOTN, group's #3. (95 pts.) - 2002 Domaine Drouhin-Laroze Chambertin-Clos de Bèze - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Chambertin-Clos de Bèze Grand Cru
This was tonight's least-ready wine, and actually reminded me somewhat of a Bordeaux! Very dark and dense to look at. Interesting nose, with graphite, clove, hyacinth and undergrowth. More darkness and density on the palate, Bovril flavours, some definite tannin and a juicy red-fruited finish. I thought this was excellent, but it needs another 5+ years to shine. (93 pts.)
Roasted veal, aubergine puree, courgette, jus
- 2002 Domaine Jean Tardy et Fils Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Les Boudots - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru
Full and spicy on the nose, very open, with some damp undergrowth. Lots of sweet red fruit on the palate and an exotic note like asafoetida, and a long finish. Lovely wine, but slightly overshadowed by the evening's other NSGs. (92 pts.) - 2002 Domaine Jean Grivot Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Les Boudots - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru
Something musky as well as the trademark note of juicy, rich blackcurrant on the nose; I'm not sure what it is, but I've noticed it in various Grivot cuvees across a number of vintages. Darkly and richly fruited on the palate, a note of yeast extract, and a grippy finish. I think the Chevillon might have been slightly the better wine tonight, but there's something about Grivot that really does it for me. Delicious and likely some further upside, too. (93 pts.) - 2002 Domaine Robert Chevillon Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Les Vaucrains - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru
A lot of wine here! Seemed very youthful - though evolved enough to enjoy - with lots of fruit. I found notes of jam, Jamaican ginger cake and tomato juice: a surprisingly delicious combination. Quite soft despite the full-throttle flavours. Group #2 wine tonight. (93 pts.) - 2002 Domaine Georges Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Les Chaignots - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru
Markedly different to its flight-mates, this wine was light on its feet and had a lot of tertiary notes, including a rather offaly note on the nose ('great Burgundy smells of shit'...). Gentle, musky, smoky and savoury, then tangy and persistent. A lot of those round the table loved this, but I found it more interesting than compelling. (92 pts.)
Epoisses
- 2002 Domaine Robert Arnoux / Arnoux-Lachaux Romanée St. Vivant - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Romanée St. Vivant Grand Cru
Lived up to its billing. Lots going on, yet gorgeously well-integrated with it. Smoky, with Vosne spice such as cardomom and gingerbread, and some bright lemon. Seamless and beautiful - sexy, even. Group WOTN, my #2. (95 pts.) - 2002 Domaine Robert Arnoux / Arnoux-Lachaux Clos Vougeot - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Clos Vougeot Grand Cru
Another great wine, although without the complexity of the RSV. Quite heady and savoury on the nose, then lots of juicy, tangy fruit on the palate. As with the RSV, there was a sense of seamlessness and authority, with more to come from this wine in the decade ahead. Yum. (93 pts.)
We did surprisingly well with the whites!