What are the benefits of in-bond?

Every now & then, you can find some absolute bargains buying an 'Investment Wine' duty paid - which is great if you're intending on drinking it.

I just picked something up yesterday (a 2010 Bordeaux), duty paid, for around 30% cheaper than the next best WS-Pro price in bond. Finding DP wine for the same price as an IB wine is not that uncommon.

Does "DP" mean the VAT has been paid as well?
 
I keep most of my collection IB as I'll probably export it eventually.

I've never been able to figure out if you can get a VAT / Duty rebate on exported wine, so I've assumed not.
 
Unique for me as I am in Singapore. Storage cost in Singapore is almost double that of UK, so I keep most wines in the UK until they are ready for consumption.

It might have altered slightly, but I was surprised to find out that the figure it became cheaper to ship wine to HK rather than pay Duty and Vat in UK was c. £160 per 12
 
Most of my wine is ib, at least the good stuff.

The 'problems' are that the storage charges really start to rack up.

Mostly because you lose sight - because you never see - the reality of how much wine you own/buy/hide from spouse!

Which leads to the uncomfortable scenario that to pay all that duty and vat might lead to Brexit style ruination of the economy!!
 
Every now & then, you can find some absolute bargains buying an 'Investment Wine' duty paid - which is great if you're intending on drinking it.

I just picked something up yesterday (a 2010 Bordeaux), duty paid, for around 30% cheaper than the next best WS-Pro price in bond. Finding DP wine for the same price as an IB wine is not that uncommon.

But wasn't that just a case of dropping on a well proved case if Duty is only £25? That's why I asked if DP included VAT as well.
 
VAT not paid in this case, I believe.

Bit of both, I think Jonathan - it's a well priced case, but part of that was (I suspect) because it was Duty Paid, and thus theoretically less attractive.
 
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I removed my half dozen cases of late 1990/2000 1st growths from bond about 10 years ago because £90 a year or so for storage just didn't seem to make sense when it added up to almost a grand over 10 years and a) I have a pretty good cellaring and space at home, and b) I do intend to drink most if not all. But it is definitely horses for courses.
 
Plus, to be explicit on an implied point raised by Asa, the realisable secondary market price of DP stock is no more than IB stock, so if you've paid tax and then choose to sell that wine on, it's lost money. Great deal for buyers who are after a great drinking wine at 20%++ discount to the price they might expect to pay a merchant, but not a great deal for the seller.
 
Plus, to be explicit on an implied point raised by Asa, the realisable secondary market price of DP stock is no more than IB stock, so if you've paid tax and then choose to sell that wine on, it's lost money. Great deal for buyers who are after a great drinking wine at 20%++ discount to the price they might expect to pay a merchant, but not a great deal for the seller.
But why should that be, Nick? When I sell a few bottles out of my cellar at home to friends, I charge them, and they happily pay, W-S price plus 10%, on the basis that I am taking the hit for rather over half the duty, VAT, and delivery costs, but they are compensating me for the other half. Why shouldn't that same principle apply if the sale is made through Wine-Owners?
 
Plus, to be explicit on an implied point raised by Asa, the realisable secondary market price of DP stock is no more than IB stock, so if you've paid tax and then choose to sell that wine on, it's lost money. Great deal for buyers who are after a great drinking wine at 20%++ discount to the price they might expect to pay a merchant, but not a great deal for the seller.

Still not sure where the logic of a 20% discount comes from if Duty is only £25 on the case - unless it's a very cheap wine to begin with?
 
But why should that be, Nick? When I sell a few bottles out of my cellar at home to friends, I charge them, and they happily pay, W-S price plus 10%, on the basis that I am taking the hit for rather over half the duty, VAT, and delivery costs, but they are compensating me for the other half. Why shouldn't that same principle apply if the sale is made through Wine-Owners?

It's not a matter of principle, it's a matter of 'market value'. Wines that are duty-paid are perceived to be less attractive, and therefore seem to attract lower prices. This holds true even if you're buying wines at the lower end of the 'investment grade' spectrum (e.g. 4th growth claret, that I bought the other day).

The 20% isn't a hard & fast number - point is, when buying on the secondary market or even through brokers & merchants, DP prices tend to be at least parity, and sometimes lower than IB equivalents. Great if you're buying a wine you intend to drink.
 
No it's more simple.

A case of chateau x is for sale from a broker for £1000 ib.

If you have them sell your case and you have already paid the VAT the merchant will charge VAT again on the sale as they wont work under the margin scheme.

So assuming the merchant works on a 10% margin he will pay you £900 for it regardless of whether the VAT has been paid once or not.
 
To be specific, the Alcohol Wholesalers Registration Scheme comes into force on 1/4/2017.
The scheme opened for registration on 1/1/2016.

There is nothing that stops wholesalers (or retailers, or auctioneers) buying wines from private individuals, but for registered companies a much higher level of demonstrable diligence seems to be required by HMRC to avoid fake and/or smuggled wines entering the supply chain.
 
I have ‘a few’ bottles in bond that I wish to export. Is there any benefit to transferring the bottles in bond to France? I will then take them out of bond immediately. Someone I know has the necessary FTA reference number etc
Is the process simple? Do I need to use a specialist shipper?
 
As Tom has stated but also if you buy to invest,then keeping in bond and OWC is advisable,possibly essential.

Only essential if you are running that part of your wine buying and selling with the mind of an investor though. I have kept nothing in bond for many years, because everything was bought for drinking, with no thought of it as an investment. I sold some top-end Burgundy at auction last year and made 6 x more than I'd paid for it, and a couple of cases of 1st growth Bordeaux made 2 x or 2.5 x than I'd paid for them. Yes, I might have wasted 20% of the original price I paid for the wines by taking them out of bond, but having never regarded it as an investment, there was zero sense of disappointment from me with the profit I made. With the mind of an investor I made a mistake, with the mind only of a wine lover, I had a significant financial bonus I hadn't ever planned for.
 
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