Wine Tasting fees

I see no issues with fees where they are justifiable as it means both parties know what to expect - as the saying goes, you get what you pay for.

Those who want to get tanked on any old vino the winery makes can book accordingly, whilst those who want to spend time going through the vineyard, barrel rooms etc and talk in detail about the wines can find something for them.

Whilst I thoroughly enjoy the latter, I appreciate the general public may not share my enthusiasm and may want a different experience entirely - I have even seen some places offering a range of tastings/tours to cater to a range of visitors which seems emminently sensible.
 
It's a digression, and I've told the story before, but the most bizarre experience I have had on a professional visit was to Oregon's Beaux Freres, famously co-owned by Robert Parker and run by his brother-in-law. I was on a major tour of Oregon, put together and paid for by the Oregon wine board, with roughly an hour allocated to each winery I visited. At Beaux Freres the very sullen B-I-L poured me a sample of their basic Chardonnay, and after I'd spent 5 minutes tasting and writing a note, there followed an awkward silence. After two minutes of him staring at me, I suggested we might taste the next wine from the 10 or so cuvees on the shelf behind him. "We don't sell the other wines in England," he said. I suggested I'd still like to taste them as I could still write about them when back home in merry old England, but he shrugged and just stared at me. "There's no point," he said. I thanked him and drove myself off for a very pleasant but unplanned 45 minute coffee break in my busy schedule.
 
Steve Slatcher said:
It hasn't been mentioned here - not much at least - but my impression is that a lot of French producers regard offering tastings as a marketing excercise. In other words they don't expect it to pay for itself directly from the visits, and certainly not for each set of visitors; it is rather to gain exposure and good will, in the hope it will help sales in the longer term.

One producer said as much explicitly, saying they'd rather offer tastings than spend the money on advertising and sending wines to competitions. And Rolly-Gassmann's marathon tastings, can never make direct economic sense but people remember them and talk about them.

That idea of course depends very much on the good will of the taster. It's not going to work if they take the piss, and just use the tasting to get squiffy on the producers top wines. Or if they regard winetasting merely as a tourist attraction.

The costs of such "marketing" must vary tremendously. If the producer needs/wants to build dedicated tasting facilities and employ staff, it is very different to a family member (who might not otherwise be fully engaged in the business) offering tasters around an up-turned barrel in the cellar.
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For some wineries, offering free tastings as a promotional activity may work. But the wines have to already have wide distribution. The good will of visitors will not build the brand on its own. Therefore you tend to see this at cooperatives and large companies. In my experience, the majority of visitors from the UK and USA do see the winery visit as a tourist experience. They are not taking the piss, they are just enjoying themselves. In the USA, visiting wineries is a massive tourist thing as it is in the UK. I would imagine the percentage of visitors who fill their car with cases is pretty small. In France it is the other way round. 95% of French (and certain other European) visits to a winery are to decide what they want to buy. That's where the problems lie. It's hard to come up with a pricing structure that meets the requirements of different types of visitor as well as the financial or marketing aims of the winery.
I've tried various ways of wording what's on offer. I think I've got it about right now. Some people do try to wangle a free experience under the guise of pretending to be there to buy but those are a tiny minority. These days I tend to ask people directly what they want to do when they visit if it isn't obvious.
 
Still need to post my notes on my visit referred to above but it did provide a useful reference point. I took 2 colleagues along with me as we were all at a loose end. Neither is very in to wine and had we been tasting for free it might have been a bit awkward. As it stood though the producer didn't lose out, my colleague enjoyed themselves and I bought some wine without feeling awkward that the others didn't.
 
It is a tough one. On some trips we'd always buy if the wine is good enough. And more often than not now we can buy as we are driving. The one exception is our yearly trips to Piedmont where we are flying in so no option to buy due to luggage restrictions.

As mentioned before we've never been charged for a tasting, including for some of the ones that apparently do charge (Vietti, Massolino, Allesandria) and we are often a group of 6-8 people. I think as we are all collectors and for some of us students of wine and we buy their wines regularly anyway or will do once we are back in the UK I suspect this is both a marketing opportunity and a potential long-term customer opportunity.

Often across the year I'll email producers I'll catch them up on where and when we've drunk their wines and how they showed and even send some pics. All of which is normally acknowledged in a grateful way and lends to a good ongoing relationship.

I can see that for areas such as Piedmont this sort of thing is becoming harder and harder to sustain due to the rapid expansion of interest in the region leading to producers seeing far more requests for visits than they have previously. It's a shame though as this is the part I most enjoy of the trips. Joshing with producers about funny visits from the Chinese Army requesting 3,000 bottles of Colonello (in the case of Altare) as well as Russian billionares with suitcases stuffed for of € in the hope of an investment (again Altare) as well as seeing how the family is doing and what is happening in the vineyards.

It is tougher and tougher to approach producers you've not visited before as often they wish to group people (understandably) and often these groups have no more than a passing interest in wine and might be on some kind of tour which makes for a frustrating experience for us. Few wines are poured and if you ask too technical questions you feel that sense of awkwardness from the other group and you have to pay for something that you probably wouldn't really have wanted to do but at least then you can chat to the winemaker and ask for a different tour next time.

Anyhow these are small complaints in what is so often the great generosity of winemakers to share their wares, family life, home and wisdom with enthusiastic amateurs. There really are painfully few industries where that is common and for that I am hugely grateful
 
Jonathan Hesford said:
For some wineries, offering free tastings as a promotional activity may work. But the wines have to already have wide distribution. The good will of visitors will not build the brand on its own. Therefore you tend to see this at cooperatives and large companies.
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There are certainly smaller producers that offer free tastings with little chance of any more than token purchases. How successful it is I wouldn't like to say, but of course small absolute increases in sales are more significant to small businesses.

The visits also provide the opportunity for smaller producers to better understand their more far-flung potential customers. I think that's an aspect of product marketing isn't it?
 
Steve Slatcher said:
There are certainly smaller producers that offer free tastings with little chance of any more than token purchases. How successful it is I wouldn't like to say, but of course small absolute increases in sales are more significant to small businesses.

The visits also provide the opportunity for smaller producers to better understand their more far-flung potential customers. I think that's an aspect of product marketing isn't it?
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There is a very fine example of this by a burgundy producer from whom I buy annually. They are happy to host tasting visits (particular for those from overseas) even when they have no wine to sell, which occurs annually. On one occasion, when I asked why not charge more the response was a smile & Gallic shrug.
 
Steve Slatcher said:
There are certainly smaller producers that offer free tastings with little chance of any more than token purchases. How successful it is I wouldn't like to say, but of course small absolute increases in sales are more significant to small businesses.

The visits also provide the opportunity for smaller producers to better understand their more far-flung potential customers. I think that's an aspect of product marketing isn't it?
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I can only report on my own region, which is a world away from Burgundy. I don't know of any winemakers who speak positively about giving a free tasting to a visitor who only makes a token purchase. Wine Pages members are special because there is a high probability that they will actually seek out wines they have tasted, whereas Joe Bloggs won't buy it if his favourite supermarket or merchant doesn't stock it. So a token bottle is basically a waste of 30 minutes time for a winery that doesn't have a permanent tasting room with high footfall.
I'm not convinced of the product-marketing opportunity of entertaining some random visitors from a country or city that the winery doesn't already sell to. We do build up national stereotypes though - like the one and only Chinese wine "connoisseur" who has visited me and after tasting 4 wines asked "Now show me your best wine. Show me your Bordeaux!" :)

At the end of the day each winery needs to design its own tourism/tasting offering based on its location, size, reputation and image. Sometimes that may not match the desires of the visitor but hopefully 95% of the time it should be mutually beneficial and enjoyable.

In my case I charge people 15€ each to have a guided tour with tasting. I also offer a food and wine matching for the same price. I have a 10€ tasting fee that I apply to each person tasting who doesn't spend 40€. I think that's fair, given that I don't apply tourist prices to the wines and my bottles only cost between 10€ and 24€.
 
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Yes, I think those prices are fair, and the "token purchases" I would have in mind would probably exempt me from the tasting fee anyway. Though how much I spend would depend on how much I liked the wine, and (unfortunately) how many bottles I could get into a suitcase for air travel.

I am not convinced that visitors are exactly random. They won't be stratified by a marketeer's demographic group, but anyone who seeks out a lesser known small producer is likely to have a serious interest in wine, if not at the geeky forumite level. But as you said, I think it would depend on the region, and producer.
 
Steve Slatcher said:
Yes, I think those prices are fair, and the "token purchases" I would have in mind would probably exempt me from the tasting fee anyway. Though how much I spend would depend on how much I liked the wine, and (unfortunately) how many bottles I could get into a suitcase for air travel.

I am not convinced that visitors are exactly random. They won't be stratified by a marketeer's demographic group, but anyone who seeks out a lesser known small producer is likely to have a serious interest in wine, if not at the geeky forumite level. But as you said, I think it would depend on the region, and producer.
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Oenotourism isn't aimed at wine buffs. It's aimed at general tourists to try to get them to visit wineries and spend some money.
I get a big diversity of visitor. Some come to seek out a small producer with a good reputation but many more come for other reasons. Proximity, opening times, advertising, the services we offer or simply speaking English. If everyone who knocked on my winery door was a wine buff, life would be simple (and very, very quiet). 99% of people who like wine don't have a serious interest in it. Wine tourism is about catering to them.
 
Two young twin brothers (well, late 20s - that's young to me :)) who are developing a real passion for wine come to all of my online-tastings.co.uk. Recently the two of them went to Venice for the weekend and asked if there was a producer within striking distance that they could visit. They specifically wanted a tourism-style visit that was not too technical and I thought of Villa Sandi who make very good Prosecco and with whom I have a good connection or two. So they made their way their via train and taxi, and had the standard tourist visit (for which they paid). They were the only English speaking visitors that day so had a private tour essentially. Towards the end of the tasting session they mentioned attending my tastings and how I'd recommended the visit. There was then an impromptu extension to the tour, where they got to taste the rarer Cru proseccos, the traditional method sparklers and the still wines, none of which are normally shown. It shows that you can kind of accommodate both the day tripper, paying for an experience, and the more genuine wine enthusiasts keen to discover more for whom you are happy to open some bottles.
 
Steve Slatcher said:
And Rolly-Gassmann's marathon tastings, can never make direct economic sense but people remember them and talk about them.
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R-G's tastings are legendary :) Madame G opens everything from the basic Edelzwicker at €4 to their Muscat SdGN at €90 (plus about 50 other wines in between. I always go with the intention of buying at least 2 (12 bottle) cases but usually end up squeezing a few more in.
 
As a consumer, I think the fairest thing is a fee that is waived upon a minimum purchase. I was at Jonathan's gaff a week ago and saw that he charges €10, waived if €30 or more of wine is purchased. This strikes me as entirely reasonable - it encourages people to think about where they want to visit and do a bit of research. Personally, I've never left a tasting without buying anything - on the rare occasions I've been hugely unimpressed I've still bought a token couple of bottles to thank them for their time. The awkwardness that comes with these experiences has encouraged me to be more thorough in my research and discerning in my choices. I've no idea why people would expect it to be truly "free" - you're taking up someone's time and consuming their goods - but I do appreciate the accessibility that comes with the fact that at most places in France there's no formal expectation of payment. Still, a €10 waivable fee is tiny, and anyone who baulks at it is probably a waste of the winemaker's time.
 
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Jonathan Hesford said:
Oenotourism isn't aimed at wine buffs. It's aimed at general tourists to try to get them to visit wineries and spend some money.
I get a big diversity of visitor. Some come to seek out a small producer with a good reputation but many more come for other reasons. Proximity, opening times, advertising, the services we offer or simply speaking English. If everyone who knocked on my winery door was a wine buff, life would be simple (and very, very quiet). 99% of people who like wine don't have a serious interest in it. Wine tourism is about catering to them.
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Well, OK, I wasn't talking about places that consider themselves to be in the business of tourism
 
Jonathan Hesford said:
I can only report on my own region, which is a world away from Burgundy. I don't know of any winemakers who speak positively about giving a free tasting to a visitor who only makes a token purchase. Wine Pages members are special because there is a high probability that they will actually seek out wines they have tasted, whereas Joe Bloggs won't buy it if his favourite supermarket or merchant doesn't stock it. So a token bottle is basically a waste of 30 minutes time for a winery that doesn't have a permanent tasting room with high footfall.
I'm not convinced of the product-marketing opportunity of entertaining some random visitors from a country or city that the winery doesn't already sell to. We do build up national stereotypes though - like the one and only Chinese wine "connoisseur" who has visited me and after tasting 4 wines asked "Now show me your best wine. Show me your Bordeaux!" :)

At the end of the day each winery needs to design its own tourism/tasting offering based on its location, size, reputation and image. Sometimes that may not match the desires of the visitor but hopefully 95% of the time it should be mutually beneficial and enjoyable.

In my case I charge people 15€ each to have a guided tour with tasting. I also offer a food and wine matching for the same price. I have a 10€ tasting fee that I apply to each person tasting who doesn't spend 40€. I think that's fair, given that I don't apply tourist prices to the wines and my bottles only cost between 10€ and 24€.
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Yes I was going to say the model of charging a modest sensible amount and possibly refunding if they purchase a set amount is very fair indeed. I think you have it spot on there, and fairly generous even.
 
I have no problem with charges esepcially at the more expensive or popular establishments. I would think a fee to tour / taste is entirely fair, possibly with a refund If you do buy at the end. The time and effort for the staff / owners I think should be covered. At the lower end how much is really made on wine sales and it’s time and energy to show people around.
 
Tom Cannavan said:
Two young twin brothers (well, late 20s - that's young to me :)) who are developing a real passion for wine come to all of my online-tastings.co.uk. Recently the two of them went to Venice for the weekend and asked if there was a producer within striking distance that they could visit. They specifically wanted a tourism-style visit that was not too technical and I thought of Villa Sandi who make very good Prosecco and with whom I have a good connection or two. So they made their way their via train and taxi, and had the standard tourist visit (for which they paid). They were the only English speaking visitors that day so had a private tour essentially. Towards the end of the tasting session they mentioned attending my tastings and how I'd recommended the visit. There was then an impromptu extension to the tour, where they got to taste the rarer Cru proseccos, the traditional method sparklers and the still wines, none of which are normally shown. It shows that you can kind of accommodate both the day tripper, paying for an experience, and the more genuine wine enthusiasts keen to discover more for whom you are happy to open some bottles.
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I find the most amazing part of this story the fact they managed to find a taxi!

In 12 years of coming to this region to visit my in laws, the only time I have managed to find a taxi was when my hotel organised me one to get me to the church for my wedding, and even then I had to fit in with their schedule so got to the church an hour earlier than a very bemused priest was expecting me to find them still setting up!

When we are visiting, if I ever mention getting a taxi somewhere to friends or family I am met with blank looks of disbelief that I would be stupid enough to suggest such a thing.

On a related not, and not too far geographically, in Venice itself it is apparently well known the the Gondola owners are the wealthiest citizens, which is perhaps unsurprising, but they are closely followed by those who own or run a water taxi service.
 
Jonathan Hesford said:
Oenotourism isn't aimed at wine buffs. It's aimed at general tourists to try to get them to visit wineries and spend some money.
I get a big diversity of visitor. Some come to seek out a small producer with a good reputation but many more come for other reasons. Proximity, opening times, advertising, the services we offer or simply speaking English. If everyone who knocked on my winery door was a wine buff, life would be simple (and very, very quiet). 99% of people who like wine don't have a serious interest in it. Wine tourism is about catering to them.
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Jonathan, what percentage of your visitors would you say come because they already know of Treloar and/or your wines ? Just interested from your own comments.

BTW or you or Rachel (or both !) big Springsteen fans :) ?
 
Mark Gough said:
Jonathan, what percentage of your visitors would you say come because they already know of Treloar and/or your wines ? Just interested from your own comments.

BTW or you or Rachel (or both !) big Springsteen fans :) ?
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Not very many. Off the top of my head, about 10%. They have either heard about us in the media or tasted our wines elsewhere. The rest come through a Google search or because of word-of-mouth or publicity. Wine Tourism is part of our business model. I'm not, as Steve Slatcher seems to think, focused on tourism but nor am I ashamed of it. I want to welcome people irrespective of their experience or knowledge. I enjoy teaching people about what I do and wine in general. I'm, just as happy discussing pesticide use, the influence of wild yeasts, how I decide assemblages and why young people like soft, fruity wines. In my experience, wine geeks do not leave my winery with just enough token bottles to avoid paying a tasting fee. On the other hand, I want to make sure that I get paid for entertaining people who just want an interesting, entertaining visit. I can't tell, at first sight whether a visitor is going to big buyer. No winery can. It's obvious from Tom's article that many Napa wineries have worked out that they have far more visitors willing to pay a big tasting fee than buy several cases. But that isn't the case in my region or at my winery. That's why I say it's up to each winery to decide the way it handles visitors. There is no one-size-fits-all. Nor can you divide wineries into tourist destinations and niche reservation-only destinations for "serious" wine lovers.
I'm the big Springsteen fan. Loved him since I was 16 years old, have all his albums and seen him play in several countries. The Rising album has several songs that hit a deep chord with me about the 9/11 experience having lived through that. Rachel's been with with me to a couple of concerts and likes him too.
 
Interesting Jonathan. Do you get many repeat visitors who consistently buy several bottles of your wine over a number of years. Just asking as, in my own experience, I regularly go back to a number of producers, some of which had got to know me over quite a lot of years. With these producers I will be buying anything from 12 to 36 bottles and I assume they knew they'd get that level of sales when I arranged to meet with them. With one Burgundy producer, as their profile had gone through the roof, I would pre-order my wines as soon as they sent me their newsletter and price list, as it had become difficult to get everything that I wanted at the time of the visit, mainly during the school summer holidays, as they sold out so quickly.
I have never been charged for a tasting at any producer in any region (France only).
 
Paul Anderson said:
Interesting Jonathan. Do you get many repeat visitors who consistently buy several bottles of your wine over a number of years. Just asking as, in my own experience, I regularly go back to a number of producers, some of which had got to know me over quite a lot of years. With these producers I will be buying anything from 12 to 36 bottles and I assume they knew they'd get that level of sales when I arranged to meet with them. With one Burgundy producer, as their profile had gone through the roof, I would pre-order my wines as soon as they sent me their newsletter and price list, as it had become difficult to get everything that I wanted at the time of the visit, mainly during the school summer holidays, as they sold out so quickly.
I have never been charged for a tasting at any producer in any region (France only).
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We have loads of repeat visitors and we know them by name (and their children) . So the charging system doesn't apply to them. My regular customers buy a lot more than 36 bottles but I don't charge Burgundy prices :)
I do feel that wine-pages members don't really understand that they represent a small percentage of people who visit wineries and although they may be more serious, we could not survive on them alone and if we did, would only receive visitors by appointment. I'm open every weekday and take regular bookings for tours and cheese-and-wine tastings over AirBnB. I learnt long ago to never judge a book by its cover.

Besides, one day I'm going to write a book about all the daft questions I've been asked by visitors to my winery.
 
James Redford said:
I find the most amazing part of this story the fact they managed to find a taxi!
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That made me laugh, because they sent me a message afterwards about how bewildering it was trying to find a taxi from the train station to Villa Sandi - none about and no signs, and having wandered the streets they eventually found a shopkeeper who made a call, and a taxi of sorts finally appeared. Apparently much easier coming back when Villa Sandi sorted one for them.
 
Trevor Armstrong said:
If I remember correctly, Bouchard Pere et Fils in Beaune charge a tasting fee in their rather fancy new retail area. However, it is waived if a certain amount of wine is purchased. That seems a sensible compromise, allowing the oenotourist with limited luggage space the option to pay while the local who wants a couple of cases tastes for free.
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I've visited several negociants in Beaune and they all charge, although Jadot waived the fee when I purchased two bottles. I don't feel as though I should buy a bottle if I've paid for a tour, although I have bought one if I particularly liked it. The growers I've visited don't charge, so I feel obliged to purchase; but there has always been something I wanted to buy. However I buy something good and not just the cheapest bottle they have. One producer, who should perhaps be nameless, tried to dissuade me from buying arguing that I could get the wines for the same or a cheaper price in England!

I might add that when I've visited a small family owned producer and enjoyed the tour and tasting, I send them an email thanking them when I return home.
 
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