- Location
- Staffordshire
Of course there is a fundamental difference, we may live in our houses for as long as we want and still realise their capital value in the future. Any empty bottle has little worth.
Burgundy why bother ?
- Thread starter Keith Prothero
- Start date
- Location
- Herefordshire
But as with housing, bubble pricing excludes access for the many. What a shame.
Nice double entendre.
Yeah, but you can't take it with you, either way.
My fundamental point, going back to my original post in the discussion above, is that once you have reached a certain state, it doesn't matter if selling the bottle adds to your bank account, it's not going to change your life in any way. Also, there's a difference between what you could realize from selling a bottle and buying it in a shop -- you're unlikely to realize the price demanded by the shop -- usually in a long way. Furthermore, at least in the US, you have taxes to pay on the sale.
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- Location
- London
Vinous memories are priceless
- Location
- London
Well, true, but it surely makes sense for the experienced Rousseau drinker who owns lots of bottles periodically to exchange just one bottle of said Chambertin from an only averagely sought after vintage for dinner at an exceedingly grand restaurant accompanied by wines of great interest and distinction. No bottle of wine is ever going to render to the consumer that much fun-unless it be to satisfy the raging curiosity engendered by knowing that a wine is great while never having tasted it.
- Location
- London
To be fair to our UK brokers they usually take 10% of the selling price, so that there isn't such a huge spread.
If they do that in the case of DRC, Jayer, Rousseau, Coche-Dury, etc., either (1) they're paying way more than the selling price in other markets or (2) they're selling the wine for way less than other markets, in which case they'll be arbitraged.
I should have added here that economists who study behavior note a disequivalence (if that's a word) between selling an asset that is not fungible for X and buying it for X.
- Location
- London
Normally they will pay the vendor only when the wine is sold-though will offer a lower price for outright purchase. It seems a fair system to me.
Why not a fixed amount? A Jayer or Coche-Dury sells with much less effort than a wine from a second- or third-tier producer, so why should there be much more profit for the retailer?
- Location
- London
Economists tend to work on the basis that we act rationally for economic purposes, a delusion that we share. This thread elegantly exposes what happens when that belief clashes with what we actually do.
One thing we do is to find rational explanations to justify our behaviour. But for most people, buying any wine at a price point of more than £7.99 is mad. You can't put a price on what gives you pleasure, though you can put a price on what you can afford.
- Location
- Northampton
Indeed - I remember a discussion at lunch in our canteen; one of my colleagues had to admit that he would cheerfully pay more than the most I had ever paid for a bottle (up to that point, at least) to fly to Scotland for the weekend and take part in a mountain marathon - something I'd probably have paid that much to avoid... (The marathon, I mean - I quite enjoy visiting Scotland, particularly if there's a wine fair or a concert involved)
- Location
- Bordeaux
Pretty poor analogy Claude.
More like if the price of houses went up by a factor of 5x but apartments stayed the same.
Which is less poor but not very good either.
More like if the price of houses went up by a factor of 5x but apartments stayed the same.
Which is less poor but not very good either.
Speak for where you live, but not where I do (for my US location).
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- Location
- Leicestershire
Cripes! I just selected off the rack for Christmas Eve a bottle of Vosne Romanee Les Brulees (Engel) 1999. I bought this from Gauntleys in Nottingham in around 2002/3 and I doubt I paid more than £35-45 for it. This thread prompted me to have a look at how much it is now going for and I see that would be around £500! That will make it the most expensive wine I've ever drunk based on price at time of drinking.
- Location
- London, England
Do you need a hand tidying up the garden / finishing Christmas decorations / preparing the pigs in blankets or peeling the spuds? Have a slot on Christmas Eve to help out in return for a glass...
- Location
- UK
I'd be tempted to sell just one bottle so I could tell people that the remaining 11 bottles in effect cost nothing!
- Location
- UK
As late as 2006 the 1999 DRC RC could be purchased in my local offie for c£400. Now north of £12k I do regret not being more financially adventurous. I think La Tache from the same year was around £200. I still have a price list somewhere but I'm not sure I can bring myself to read it.
- Location
- London
Anyone want a bottle of Engel Brulées 2002? - £350 per bottle to you
The price of course evidencing Claude's disequivalence theory.Disequivalence applies most to scarcity driven non-fungible markets/ collectibles. eg Burgundy. Least to markets where relatively plentiful supply and at least equivalent demand exists eg Bordeaux classified growths. Another reason to drink the lion's share of your burgundy cellar, buy and sell Bordeaux.
..Subject quite rightly to Thom's quote. The trick is to have enough in the cellar to be able to sell whole packs in OCC - to achieve a much better price in the secondary market. And of course Thom, there are some routes to the secondary market that charge as little as 4%. Discuss
- Location
- Dorset, England
Whilst I'm disclined to sell my wine, in the position I might've have been tempted. I suspect it would add a frisson more pleasure to drinking the remaining bottles.
I'm down to a single remaining Engel (GE) which I'll open with mixed feelings. Every bottle of his wines has provided true enjoyment. Sadly missed.
- Location
- Johnny Foreigner
Hmm. there are many great examples of what seems to have been a very underpriced 'commodity' in the context of today's larger market for burgundy wine. Tough shit for us it appears - but that's life.
I particularly like Nick's note about entry to special dinners - for an important bottle (today) that cost comparatively little when released. I've done that too.
I hate to think of wine as an asset, but depending on, or in certain circumstances, there's no escape from that. But Claude (I think it was?) hit the nail on the head where people have no 'need' for the cash from selling. I think it's crying wolf, indeed BS, where people say they can't drink something because it is now worth x, yet all their needs (from a Maslov perspective) are met, and they have many multiples of x as accessible assets. This neatly outlines my own issue with the OP. Circumstances vary, but unless Keith has a new bed under the arches, empathy is not welling from my very core...
I will open and drink RC, it is the pinnacle of my greatest interest, I will remain unfulfilled without it (nobody mention 'corked'!) but I still need a few years more to make the bottles worthwhile.
Yep, I bough a whole run of 99-04 Grands-Echezeaux from H Ripley EPs - all for ~£41-45 IB. But the most important thing is, not a single disappointment (okay, except the 04s....)
Yep, pretty ridiculous, particularly as the 02 is a much better wine imho - but that must have been a great offie btw! Talking of being adventurous (or not!) - I well remember after I moved to Switzerland and had the UK house-sale cash in the bank, I noted that BB&R had an unbroken 12-pack of 1999 Romanée-Conti - a snip at 25k! I 'rationally' didn't bite. Actually that was the last vintage that the domaine did 12-packs of RC, and for the first time, an example where comparing wines to houses is a valid example - that 12-pack could have sold for well over 250k USD in HK a year or two ago - maybe more now...
I particularly like Nick's note about entry to special dinners - for an important bottle (today) that cost comparatively little when released. I've done that too.
I hate to think of wine as an asset, but depending on, or in certain circumstances, there's no escape from that. But Claude (I think it was?) hit the nail on the head where people have no 'need' for the cash from selling. I think it's crying wolf, indeed BS, where people say they can't drink something because it is now worth x, yet all their needs (from a Maslov perspective) are met, and they have many multiples of x as accessible assets. This neatly outlines my own issue with the OP. Circumstances vary, but unless Keith has a new bed under the arches, empathy is not welling from my very core...
I will open and drink RC, it is the pinnacle of my greatest interest, I will remain unfulfilled without it (nobody mention 'corked'!) but I still need a few years more to make the bottles worthwhile.
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- Location
- Deep South of Cambridgeshire
4% is a bit misleading IMHO - but as you've used the "as little as", you can't be done for that! ;-) There are also some that charge nothing - but much of it is about the price you can get for it before the percentage is taken away...there are some routes to the secondary market that charge as little as 4%. Discuss
- Location
- London
Fair cop Constable! Though where a collector is thinking of selling a bunch of wines that tot up in value, it's super easy to justify
Couldn't agree more Alex!
- Location
- Nottingham
Engel is getting plenty of mentions here and those wines are a bit of a special case in the sense that they...
- were modestly priced by the standards of the time on release - not top domaine pricing - so were bought with relative freedom by a number of us from theforum.
- have had scarcity imposed by Philippe's early death and the ending of the domaine.
I'm another one with an ever-dwindling stock of Engel wines. I think they were the wines that gave me my first OMG moment with red Burg, so they have a lot to answer for and they're sort-of special to me for that reason (and also because they're bloody lovely!).
My problem as my stock declines is resisting the temptation to regard the remaining bottles as too precious to drink. I don't mean precious at all in the sense of £££££ value, but in the sense of being irreplaceable. I've just reviewed cellar contents and what's due a look in 2017 and earmarked three Engels for consumption and I'll just have to be very brave and find the right moment for each. As Bill says, if there was an Engel offline I'd regard putting one of mine up as the price of entry as a good reward for my bravery!
- were modestly priced by the standards of the time on release - not top domaine pricing - so were bought with relative freedom by a number of us from theforum.
- have had scarcity imposed by Philippe's early death and the ending of the domaine.
I'm another one with an ever-dwindling stock of Engel wines. I think they were the wines that gave me my first OMG moment with red Burg, so they have a lot to answer for and they're sort-of special to me for that reason (and also because they're bloody lovely!).
My problem as my stock declines is resisting the temptation to regard the remaining bottles as too precious to drink. I don't mean precious at all in the sense of £££££ value, but in the sense of being irreplaceable. I've just reviewed cellar contents and what's due a look in 2017 and earmarked three Engels for consumption and I'll just have to be very brave and find the right moment for each. As Bill says, if there was an Engel offline I'd regard putting one of mine up as the price of entry as a good reward for my bravery!