NWR 6N 2021.

Two pints of order Dan - 1) bang on about furlong taking the pressure off - clever play by him with the rule being first offence free kick and second a penalty BUT mako had already got on the wrong side of the ref by first early shove (very tight call that) then knee on the ground. 2) a new rule was introduced this season banning the roll and making it a penalty. It’s seen as effectively playing the ball whilst off feet and equivalent to crawling forwards. Lots of instances in the premiership and other 6n matches as players so used to it. It’s annoying as we’ve been coaching the kids to do it for 5 years and now we have to coach it out of them again!
 
I thought that some of the ref decisions were very tight ones - and in general England could consider themselves a bit unlucky. But given how many stupid penalties they’ve conceded this tournament (especially earlier on) I’m pretty sure that refs unconsciously have that in their minds and that’s England’s fault ultimately!!
EJ always saying we can’t control what the ref does etc and England need to shed some very bad habits if they’re not going to lose the benefit of the doubt in tight calls.
 
It just gets to a point though as a player (and certainly as a fan watching) when you start to think you’re wasting your time. Rugby, by it’s nature, means that there are numerous reasons in almost every phase of play why a ref can justify blowing his whistle. Normally (I’d guess 80% of the time), it’s the defending team that the refs are looking to punish. What really stood out here was that he continuously penalised england when attacking. Farrell’s roll, twice at 5m scrums against mako, the line out on the 5m line etc etc The calls were all very debateable and none of the supposed offences had any impact on what was happening in the game at the time. You contrast that with the ref deciding Henderson wasn’t offside at the kick off when binding onto Maro and the ball in the maul England had set. I can’t think of a more obvious offside in recent memory. I know I’m biased like all fans but I played enough and at a high enough level and have watched enough since then to think I have a reasonably informed view. What we’ve seen from both french refs in the games this year with england (wales and ireland) has been completely determinitive of the result. Contrast that with the fabulous england france game where the ref let the players determine the result.
 
Clearly, England played very well against France... should I say unfortunately ;)... but against Ireland?... Farrell's roll was fairly punished along the new rule but a real turning point was when he came out after his ill judged "plaquage"... England really looked disorganised and `Ireland went on the rampage... Against Wales England had a good period mainly after the pause but did they put 80 minutes in any match? Basically, they need to introduce the new generation and build for the future... and maybe sack the Manager as they do so often in football...
Mind you, France used to complain about referees when they got their 10 bad years...
 
Ultimately the game of the weekend was France v Wales. A great watch, start to finish. Great play all round and drama to the end.

On England they don’t seem to get any luck with ref decisions, 50/50s are all going against them. I sense teams are now playing to it. How come England aren’t clever enough to play these games as well?
I think Dan is probably right with some of his bad decision picks. I spotted a neck roll on Curry when he gave away another kickable penalty in the second half. Ten minutes after Makos.
But we know who reffing before hand and I think they even brief the teams. So both teams should see how the rules will be applied.
For instance I think early engagement is an Irish tactical ploy, but good on them, we need to counter it.
 
Russ Sainty said:
Ultimately the game of the weekend was France v Wales. A great watch, start to finish. Great play all round and drama to the end.

On England they don’t seem to get any luck with ref decisions, 50/50s are all going against them. I sense teams are now playing to it. How come England aren’t clever enough to play these games as well?
I think Dan is probably right with some of his bad decision picks. I spotted a neck roll on Curry when he gave away another kickable penalty in the second half. Ten minutes after Makos.
But we know who reffing before hand and I think they even brief the teams. So both teams should see how the rules will be applied.
For instance I think early engagement is an Irish tactical ploy, but good on them, we need to counter it.
Click to expand...
I don’t think it’s fair to put it on the players or coach. They didn’t suddenly become useless vs what they were against france. If a ref wants to he can determine the outcome of the game and there’s nothing the players can do about it. That is what has been happening repeatedly. As I noted before, it would have made no difference if scw had been coaching and the 03 side playing yesterday.
 
You have a point Dan, but you have to say overall it’s been a poor tournament for England given the players available for selection.Particularly when none of the sides in the competition were truly world class.
 
I only caught the last 20 minutes yesterday, so was interested to see what I made of the reffing calls on replay.

First 7 mins, three clear penalties against England, none awarded. Itoje playing the ball on the floor in the tackle/deliberate knock on. Wilson holding the legs of an Irish defender two meters off the ruck. Itoje again using his hands in a ruck to make a turnover. Two of three called by the comms team.

Then 11 mins, itoje could have seen yellow for taking away the legs of the Irish jumper on the air.

By that time, the only pens had been against Ireland.

Hmm, some pretty one eyed analysis here.

Still, congratulations to England on their reverse triple crown... ;)
 
England need to manage how they react to referees better - it's a simple as that. They've been poor at it for a long time, and most of the players do a better job in the arguably much more unfair club environment. This is a mindset that's being trained, and it needs to be looked at.

All great test sides learn how to play to refs. The idea that England are penalised more is laughable IMO, and their indiscipline is being rightly criticised.
 
A good test team will quickly assess the ref (and probably know in advance) what their hot buttons and red flags are. Then it is all about being street smart which May Kr nay not be entirely legal (cue Tadh Furlong) but ultimately it is about a picture the ref sees. England are just not at the races
 
I do actually wonder if it has anything to do with bringing referees into camp (is this a common practice? I've only ever heard of England doing it). During this 6N they've had Wayne Barnes and Matthew Carley (not one of the better ones IMO) in camp "to give them pointers on how to stay on the right side of the law" - obviously this has been far from successful, but I can't help but think it's probably not a great way to train reactivity to a ref - I can't see actual test refs modelling situations where they get things wrong in the camp?! I appreciate the approach is "let's get things right to start with" but variance in refeering standards since time immemorial means this is surely not possible?
 
I’ve heard this canard time and again about assessing and adapting to the ref and how good teams do it and inexperienced/bad ones don’t. First, this is a very experienced England team and it is the most experienced players being pinged. Second, to the extent that it was ever a real “skill” of good teams, it related largely to how the ref dealt with the breakdown since there were typically lots of breakdowns throughout the game so players should have had plenty of time to adapt. Moreover, the team winning the breakdown area would tend to win the game. Where it becomes a baseless criticism of a team is when a ref keeps on making new and somewhat random calls against a team, in particular at key moments in a game when that team is in a key attacking situation ie 5m scrums, lineouts etc. In close international matches, each team will likely only have a handful of those situations so maximising points from them inevitably determines the outcome of the game. England didn’t fail to adapt to the ref - farrell wasn’t penalised repeatedly for rolling, the props weren’t penalised again for crossing in the lineout etc etc. Fair enough, they didn’t “adapt” to the ref deciding the offside rule didn’t apply to Henderson joining a maul from the england side but I doubt they would have got away with that if they had tried.
 
If you research Woodward’s approach to the 03 World Cup.His tactics were very simple... “the team that gives away the least penalties will win”
He coached discipline for the whole tournament.
The game has changed since that win and arguably not for the better.Rugby is now a game of set pieces and breakdown.
Seems to me discipline is far more important In today’s game than ever was.

As an aside I watched Bill maclaren‘s best bits on you tube.......The skill,flair and talent of those players and the joyous reaction from the ecstatic crowds,can never be matched in today’s boring juggernaut palave.
I stopped going to Twickenham roughy 8 years ago after being bored by a souless stadium with Zero atmosphere.
 
Need a lie down after that! Great to get the two away wins and definitely getting somewhere with this team, however, can't help feeling this was the year that could have been. We weren't far away against Ireland and Wales so definite improvement.

I genuinely think we can build a team worthy of at least a quarter final spot in France at RWC23. Exciting prospect
 
A good scalp.
The thing with the Scotland team is that they always raise the game against England and when they will be denying someone something but take the foot off if that’s not part of the equation. Having beaten England there was a decent argument for Scotland to win the whole thing with an unfancied wales, ageing ireland, useless Italy and enigmatic France. A good end to the competition for the neutral
 
Sean Edwards will have choked on his croissant after Dulin failed to kick the ball dead and effectively gifted Scotland the chance to win the game, which to their credit they took. That lack of nous was the biggest enco to any team seeing France as the route to RWC23. otherwise not the most exciting of games unless Welsh or Scots
 
A bit late after the conclusion of the championship but this was sent to me yesterday, made me chuckle.



The permutations for Friday night are fairly straightforward, but for clarity:


If France win by less than 20 points, Wales are Champions, and England 5th.

If France win by over 20 points and score at least 4 tries, France are Champions and England 5th.

If Scotland win, Wales are Champions and England 5th.

If it’s a draw, Wales are champions and England 5th.

If France win by 20 and score 5 tries, the championship is shared and England are 5th.
 
England were a deserved 5th, but really having Italy in the Six Nations is a joke. They looked poor throughout and are just not competitive. I think we should rethink their participation. If it were the Five Nations the Celts among us could then have enjoyed the superior pleasure of England coming last.
 
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Richard Zambuni said:
England were a derived 5th, but really having Italy in the Six Nations is a joke. They looked poor throughout and are just not competitive. I think we should rethink their participation. If it were the Five Nations the Celts among us could then have enjoyed the superior pleasure of England coming last.
Click to expand...

On Italy, I will put a big caveat in, that they are trying to fast track a very competitive youth team onto the international stage. As such the results this year were always likely to be spectacularly bad, and that even by Italy's overall poor competitiveness. However if this strategy works, it offers the prospect of a significant uptick in performance, potentially lifting them higher than before.

That's not to say the sport should not be looking at building the opportunities for the likes of Georgia, Portugal, Kenya, Romania, Russia etc. The prospect of a 2nd tier 6N ought to be an obvious aspiration, one where with exposure and experience, the prospect of promotion/relegation becomes real - albeit possibly on a 2 year cycle.
 
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